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Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 23:13:47 GMT -5
I've got it!
Force Fields provide 1/2 their Defense as their own defense... anything over that, and less than actually breaking the force field would become a Stun Attack... So in my example... she'd only take 2 stun damage (Her Force Field has 3 stones with the 2x option, making the field's defense 3... with a 5 stone attack it would convert to 2 stones of stun)
That's much better...
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 23:22:32 GMT -5
Okay, but you're missing the point: She's still paying more energy than if she'd just allocated defense some other way.
Also, and more importantly, this is giving every force field user Sue Richards' problem with FFs. That's like making all force blasts into beams that come out of your eyes uncontrollably unless you have a ruby visor.
Sue's problems are Sue's problems. The FF rules should be the lowest common denominator. It should do what they all have in common, but provide options to account for all the neat little differences. It should also NOT do what we DON'T want it to do: namely, provide stones of defense to allies without hindering their ability to move and act.
That's what I proposed. I proposed the option to lower your Material Rating to 3, since I can name at least 2 characters who've had their force fields penetrated (not just overcome, I mean penetrated). I can post scans of the panels if necessary. lol
The other options I've provided account for other details as well. vjc says 5 options is complicated, but I don't find it difficult to scroll down a list of 5 options ONCE at character creation and pick out the ones that suit your character.
My mechanic is solid. It's simple. It does what we want it to do without doing what we don't want it to do. I think it needs to be balanced and perhaps streamlined (mostly in terms of presentation, which is what I'll fix tomorrow) but we can do that.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 23:24:55 GMT -5
That's why there's the no stun damage option....
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 23:27:13 GMT -5
Heh, then it should be a "you DO take stun damage" option, instead of it being the norm, ya?
Again, that's like saying "all force blasts are uncontrolled without a ruby visor" unless you take an option. Do it the other way around.
And still, what's wrong with just giving her a low energy recovery in comparison to her giant FF AN?
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 23:36:28 GMT -5
No... my way is saying "It's INCREDIBLY draining on the system, unless either there's something else powering it, or you've trained that aspect away, or for some reason it doesn't effect you."
And it covers all of WK's bases for what he wanted to cover.
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 11, 2009 23:57:07 GMT -5
So for a 2.0 forcefield to be comparable to the 1.0 version... its now a +10CL action AND it loses no AP?? Extreme man. Extreme.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 11, 2009 23:59:42 GMT -5
So for a 2.0 forcefield to be comparable to the 1.0 version... its now a +10CL action AND it loses no AP?? Extreme man. Extreme. I have no idea where you got +10 CL from! Or no AP! If you're referring to my rule set, anyway. I'll type it up tomorrow.. maybe it will make sense then. ~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 12, 2009 0:07:23 GMT -5
I have no idea where you got +10 CL from! Or no AP! If you're referring to my rule set, anyway. I'll type it up tomorrow.. maybe it will make sense then. ~TWF I was talking to Dionon. Read what he posted. Forcefield. Base cost +2 CL, 2x defense +3 CL, attack with forcefield +1 CL, does not cause stun damage to user +4 CL. 2+3+1+4= 10. It is now a +10 CL action. This approaches partial phoenix force and the power cosmic in cost levels and its AP is weaker. I just don't see it adding up.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 12, 2009 0:16:46 GMT -5
Yeah, but if you look at how broken Force Field was, and the fact that while still a good option (if you don't go NUTS) it's not nearly as Broken as it was.
And if you choose the Solid Type, you retain the No AP... it's Fluid Type that loses most of it's no AP
Solid Type gives the Shield hardness of a Level 4 Material (Adamantium) Fluid Type gives the Shield hardness of a Level 2 Material (Titanium)
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 12, 2009 0:21:28 GMT -5
I don't see the logic between the Solid/Fluid distinction. I think you maybe misinterpreted what I meant when I used the word "Fluid". I wasn't referring to the density of the field, I was talking about how combat isn't measured in 30 second panels - combattants are always raising and lowering their defenses in response to circumstances, and FFs should be the same way.
Anyway, nevermind. I'll post again tomorrow. ^_^ Possibly in a new thread, as my idea is starting to diverge from others.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 12, 2009 0:29:12 GMT -5
Fluid is more like the Force Shields from Star Wars: Episode 1 Solid is more like what Sue Storm has... a Solid Wall of SOMETHING.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 12, 2009 7:09:19 GMT -5
*rubs temples*
Y'know what? Force Field sucks, and heres why. If you don't let it do more stones of defense than you put into it, its no better than just shifting stones to defense from elsewhere.
If you DO let it defend for more stones than you have in the box... its just too good.
X2 defense... is just too good. I'm sorry, but there it is.
I literally had a nightmare about this last night. Literally.
Taken with other options that are being proposed...
A character could easily and cheaply have 3 or 4 actions per panel (via another suggestion that I think is a terrible idea), and can choose how much energy they regenerate per panel, meaning that any smart player will make good and sure to have enough regen to fuel their Force Field, and having an Action to use it with won't be a problem either.
Now, Force Field is double defense that stacks with other defenses... unless I'm missing something, even a relatively small Force Field bonus is going to make the character unharmable pretty quickly.
FF 4 = 8 Defense with full No AP built in for free. Toss in some Toughness or RD (relatively cheap) and a uniform (+1 Mod, +2 easily if we allow the wealth-based nuttiness that goes on in MURPG now...) and you're looking at a character with 13 or 14 defense, No AP.
How many people are going to be able to penetrate that, with what we've cooked up for Close/Ranged/Ninja Combat?
Don't even get me started about higher stone count games where characters could have FF 8, Toughness 6...
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Post by Dionon on Feb 12, 2009 9:05:58 GMT -5
Uh... dude... did you read my proposal.... I think I actually solved most of what was wrong with Force Fields, and made the options viable, AND came up with a system to simulate the strain of keeping one up for a long time...
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 12, 2009 9:12:39 GMT -5
Yeah I just looked it over. Its actually pretty good for a "Sue style" Force Field (maybe a little complex), but I'm sure theres something I'm missing (and as TWF points out, not everybody has brain hemorrhages every time their Force Field gets messed up).
I'd be perfectly happy with that mechanic in the long run, but I think you'd get a lot of argument from others.
Personally I don't think that some of the "examples" for Force Fields are really Force Fields (Skids, Armor), but rather of a unique ability akin to Blasting, and Metamorphosis, respectively... but I do think that Force Field is a "fair" interpretation of what they do as well, and if you're going to include them... well they don't seem to share the same problems. I'm not familiar at all with Hellion, so I can't really comment on him.
Perhaps something that makes Force Field cheaper to use than other defenses without doubling the AN... but then I don't know how many players would consider it worthwhile as opposed to Toughness, RD, and so on (which don't require ANY stones or actions)
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Post by Dionon on Feb 12, 2009 9:17:34 GMT -5
Technically I do include an option to get rid of the stun damage....
And... if we use vjc's Defense Matrix, Force Fields would be very viable, because all you have is your Static Defense which unless it's ungodly, is easy to overcome. Especially since in vjc's system, RD and TG don't stack, but are counted in order. RD, TG...
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