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Post by Neros on Feb 14, 2009 7:18:50 GMT -5
Well, 1r stone of defense/resistance to hit the target per stone he spends in into speed seems simple enough.. But you are right that its weird that it dosent distinguish between someone who is flying or someone running..
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Post by malice on Feb 18, 2009 15:11:27 GMT -5
I suggested in another thread that the cost of Flight be reduced to AN + 1.
For that you get flight, but you have to fly by some means that affects your form, such as wings. The advantage to this is the lower cost. The disadvantage is that people can attack your flight by mundane means, such as shooting your wings. This also makes flight a natural ability for you, so as long has you are in your flight-capable form you can fly.
AN + 2 gets you "unaided flight" which is where you fly because you can, no wings necessary. Superman, Rogue, Ghosts, etc., all fly like this. The advantage to this is that you are harder to ground. The disadvantage is that it's more expensive.
Another option, and one I'm very interested in, is making unaided flight replace your Speed ability. So instead of it being an action it becomes an ability score and your Speed becomes more expensive, but also makes flying your natural movement. I think this should increase the price of your Speed ability by at LEAST 3 or 4 cost levels, since you're getting an action and an ability together. It also allows you to move at walking speed through the air for free.
As for Hovering, I suggest it work like this:
Normally you must spend 1 stone to maintain an action. Maintaining actions doesn't count against your 2 action per panel limit, although it costs stones. People with normal flight hover by spending 1 stone per panel in the Flight Action Box but can take two other actions per panel. This 1 stone/panel cost can be alleviated in one of a few ways:
1st: Buy the more expensive flight, the AN +2 one
OR
2nd: Buy an advantage that would be available to all actions that allows you a limited amount of free stones in an action. I suggested one in the Energy Regeneration thread I think
OR
3rd: Make it so the "Efficient" advantage also allows free maintainence of the actions you buy it on
As for the Blast Field, I think it should be an additional +1 and only give you defense equal to the stones you put into the flight action. This gives fliers the option to buy a defensive advantage and also allows people who put that "Unstoppable" advantage (Nice advantage btw) on their flight to opt out of the Blast Field if they have a high Toughness (which would similarly keep them from being hurt by slamming through a wall)
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Post by Neros on Feb 18, 2009 15:32:36 GMT -5
And what if you lose your wings? What is your speed then?
But for the hover part, I don't think it should be a option or something like that.. So fare, I havn't seen a single character with flight which hasent hovered at some point.. Besides, you don't really gain anything from hovering, except against Close Combatants, and even they can usually pick something up and throw it at you (at which point, hovering isent a good idea)..
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 18, 2009 15:33:43 GMT -5
How does someone "attack your wings", exactly?
I think this is moving rapidly towards the unnecessarily complex. It's neat, but I just don't think its necessary.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 18, 2009 15:35:27 GMT -5
That was my thought as well.
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Post by malice on Feb 18, 2009 15:51:09 GMT -5
Forgive my ignorance, but I don't see how discriminating between powers that can be taken from you by any old mook and powers that can only be taken from you by people with highly-specialized actions/modifiers/equipment (Like Suppress Mutant Powers) is unnecessarily complex.
Archangel can have his wings ripped off, and I'm pretty sure he has. Wings SUCK and are completely worth a discount.
Some "flavor" differences quickly become differences in power.
I have yet to figure out how to balance or price "Mastery of Light" with the "Exist only as" or "Transform into" options because the character would immediately have Speed 10 (Flying) for free. It's really only "flavor" but it has dramatic consequences on gameplay.
You asked how they "attack your wings". It's realy simple: They say they are and spend stones accordingly. Here's another way: The GM realizes an NPC has made a fatal attack on a PC, but doesn't want to kill the PC and decides the shot hits the PC's wings instead. The PC gets to live but loses his Flight action until he heals.
My final answer: Ever heard the expression "Winged him"? I'll give you three guesses where it comes from.
How DON'T you attack their wings? They're massive by nature and have to be to carry the weight of the creature. That's just how it works. It's not complicated, it's simple, but unfortunately simplicity in this case favors the person trying to kill the winged creature.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 18, 2009 16:26:41 GMT -5
Malice, I was asking for a mechanic. How many stones do I put in what box against what difficulty/resistance to shoot someone hard enough in the wings while they're flying to knock them out of the sky and for how long?
~TWF
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Post by malice on Feb 18, 2009 16:37:27 GMT -5
However many you'd place to attack or remove a limb. I'm aware of no rules for it present in MURPG RAW, so that leaves it up to the GM.
Personally I only require that the person overcome the person's defense with a standard attack, suffering a situational penalty for a called shot. If the defense is overcome and damage dealt, then you have to decide what level of damage is done to the wings (Damage is dealt to their health as usual, but they suffer more penalty for the attack because the attacker willingly took a penalty to inflict one).
I imagine someone like Archangel, whose CAD is just plain awful, could only take 1 stone of targeted damage to one of his wings before they became useless.
If you choose to instead apply a penalty to their flight, I suggest nothing greater than the penalty the attacker took in order to cause the damage. So if making a called shot was worth -4 stones to their attack, they can drop their target's flight AN by 4 (Sizeable).
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Post by Dionon on Feb 18, 2009 20:41:02 GMT -5
Guys? Who uses the 1 stone to hover rule? Really...
Personally, I like my suggestion for flight. Same costs as Malice's but different effects
+1 = Can fly, can't hover, must keep moving to remain airborne +2 = Can fly, and hover, but must maintain effort to hover +3 = Can fly, can Hover effortlessly
Simple, takes care of everything....
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 18, 2009 20:57:11 GMT -5
Thats really more expensive than it should be. Being able to hover without paying energy and using one of your actions isn't worth an entire additional cost level.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 18, 2009 21:05:43 GMT -5
It shouldn't exist period... but everyone keeps insisting that you can't hover without expending energy.... While NO gm does it that way.
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Post by malice on Feb 18, 2009 21:29:17 GMT -5
It shouldn't exist period... but everyone keeps insisting that you can't hover without expending energy.... While NO gm does it that way. I do. I guess that makes me an idiot. How many birds actually hover? There's the Hummingbird, and.... ....ever wonder why? It's because holding still and supporting your weight is actually difficult when you're aloft. Moving somewhere is often just as difficult, but it gets you somewhere. In my eyes Flight as an action means that flying is somewhat trying for you, or you have wings, both of which mean hovering takes effort. Sorry if I'm completely weird and stupid with how I run things, but maintaining an unenhanced action should ALWAYS cost stones, that's why it's an action and not a modifier. I still believe in a generic advantage that makes the first stone you pay into an action free, or some variation of that concept, so that you can both do it easier and maintain it for free. Not without an advantage though. "Everybody does it" and "Nobody does that" are worthless excuses for arguments.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 18, 2009 21:42:52 GMT -5
Ok... how bout the argument that the book says Movement under 5mph is free of charge? You might be flying, but hovering is just standing still in the air.
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Post by malice on Feb 18, 2009 22:02:51 GMT -5
Not exactly.
Standing still is holding your body in place while what you're standing on keeps you from falling.
Hovering is holding your body in place while YOU keep you from falling.
Also, there is no creature that I know of in nature that can fly effortlessly. Therefore there is no creature I know of in nature that can hover effortlessly.
I don't really have a big problem with allowing people to hover for free, but because that seperates flight from other maintainable actions I don't do it that way. That doesn't mean I think allowing it for free is stupid.
I also was responding to the demand of others for a hover rule, so I offered mine.
If you use my way 1 stone isn't that much lost and you're not counting against your 2 action per panel limit anyway. If you make it free 1 stone isn't that much gained and you're not counting against your 2 action per panel limit anyway.
No matter which way you use, other actions still cost stones to maintain so I'm still in favor of making an advantage that makes some stones of an action free OR just making the already-existing "Efficient" advantage allow free maintenance of actions if the maintenance cost is normally 1 stone.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 19, 2009 0:16:43 GMT -5
Honestly, if something costs 1 stone per panel to maintain... it means it's supposed to take an action. That's at least been the consensus of the people I've talked to... That's what I was railing against.
BUT Game Mechanics wise, there still is no reason, unless you have Wings that hovering should require anymore effort than saying hello to your friend....
That's why I suggested the three levels...
First being: Flight, no Hover Second being: Flight, Hover costs 1r/Panel Third being: Flight, Hover free
What was really at issue was how much I charged (+1, 2 and 3 respectively) and WK was right... it should be (the way I said it before I realize) (+0, +1, and +2 respectively)
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