|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 15, 2009 11:58:24 GMT -5
*Raises Hand*... Just noticed something, isent this more a Modifier than a Action? It is, in a way. I chose to call it an Action because it does deal with stones in a sense, and I figure it would be good to have an action box around to put them in while designing inventions. Thereafter, the box can be used for at least one of your inventions.. not sure if that's actually helpful to TableTop people. lol If not, it can easily be a Modifier, as long as we maintain rules for buying it up for the same 10 LOEs per point cost - anything more expensive and it would quickly fall behind other Actions in worth. I think the Inventing Stone Pool combined with "Deployment" cost mechanic is probably the most straightforward solution to properly limiting inventing without crippling it. Invent as much as you want, but to bring out your inventions will cost stones from your pool. This also makes it more of a resource management game. The player needs to make intelligent decisions on how they want to spend their inventing resources. Should I spend more stones on inventing improvements this turn or do I save up my stones to bring out a really powerful invention this issue? Etc. Yeah, my system sort of skipped the invention phase and assumes you have whatever it is you want to deploy. It's less involved my way, but it provides a lot more versatility. If you have to spend time actually creating the inventions, the versatility drops significantly. I wanted to recreate how inventors always have some handy gadget that will actually be useful in the storyline. We never see them actually inventing it, but when its needed, there it is. I'm interested in seeing it written up formally, though. Maybe we can include both versions, calling yours True Invention (Dio seemed to like that name). Less versatility, but perhaps more power. ~TWF
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 15, 2009 14:15:13 GMT -5
Okay... I have NO idea what Dio was ranting about... but I desperately want to incorporate whatever he said was going to make him boycott the forum.
I mean, no offense, Dio... but that was a hardcore childish rant akin to threatening to take your ball and go home if you don't get your way.
Personally, "permanent inventing" is a major "no" for me, not that I'm going to boycott anything if its in... I just don't like it. Its extremely abusive, allows characters to improve in power many times over much more rapidly than any other character, and it doesn't reflect anything that heroes do in the comics.
Basically... its a terrible idea and its time to disintegrate it.
|
|
|
Post by UrbanBlue on Feb 15, 2009 15:47:18 GMT -5
What was our suggestion about PA?
|
|
|
Post by Neros on Feb 15, 2009 15:58:53 GMT -5
Yea, we could easily turn it into a modifier..
What if a player wants to learn inventing? Do he just then pay 5/10 LoE and gain this modifier/Action and then he has some inventions ready?
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 15, 2009 16:06:18 GMT -5
PA deserves its own thread sometime. My suggestion is that PA characters essentially be made the way Transform Self characters are made (I don't see the distinction between a human with a super-powered transformation and a human with a super-powered suit of armor). However, we haven't really sorted out Transform Self yet either, so it'll be a while yet. ^__^ What if a player wants to learn inventing? Do he just then pay 5/10 LoE and gain this modifier/Action and then he has some inventions ready? That's the idea. As long as there's been enough time to justify a new purchase, I don't see why not. (You can't learn Business skills or Close Combat 1 overnight either.) ~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Neros on Feb 15, 2009 16:46:08 GMT -5
Hmm.. Well, the difference is that a PA can be brokken/destroyed/stolen.. Someone who transformes can't lose their transformation.. Never seen anyone steal Colosus's organic steel form
|
|
|
Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 15, 2009 21:55:31 GMT -5
Hmm.. Well, the difference is that a PA can be brokken/destroyed/stolen.. Someone who transformes can't lose their transformation.. Never seen anyone steal Colosus's organic steel form In actual practice PA is rarely stolen except by GM fiat when he is trying to make a storyline. The GM could as easily throw a 'steal super powers' villain at Colossus if he wanted to explore a 'powerless' Rasputin. So I don't really buy that as a significant disadvantage. And it's certainly NOT enough of a disadvantage to justify half costs on stats plus all the other lower PA costs that come along with it.
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 15, 2009 23:41:09 GMT -5
Okay... I have NO idea what Dio was ranting about... but I desperately want to incorporate whatever he said was going to make him boycott the forum. I mean, no offense, Dio... but that was a hardcore childish rant akin to threatening to take your ball and go home if you don't get your way. Yeah... vjc suggested we charge LoE for inventions... That should have been very clear in the gist of everything I railed against with it. And no... you don't want to incorporate it. It's a foul, loathsome idea that would stop most people from using Invention. Getting back to post-rant vjc has a very good idea with his Invention Pool idea... there are only 2 problems I can see. 1. What happens if you create something permenant for someone else? 2. What happens if you are mass producing an item for your team?
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 0:01:19 GMT -5
I was just reading the Wealth discussion and it occurred to me that we might be able to set up a loose mechanic that translates Wealth into permanent items via Invention.
DISCLAIMER: I don't want to suggest that it would look ANYTHING like the 1.0 Invention (that has to be burned to the ground with its ashes scattered in the most remote locations in all four hemispheres just to be safe). Read this paragraph as many times as you need to for that idea to sink in. Two pages from now I don't want to see someone saying "TWF wants the old Invention back, only worse!" or something equally stupid.
But let's face it.. someone who's bought enough Wealth to be a multi-millionaire should be allowed to buy some equipment with that money. Would it be so terrible to let a character with both Wealth and Inventing to design their own stuff?
As long as it remains within the realm of "equipment" and not stuff that just completely duplicates an Action (that's way too close to 1.0). AT NO POINT should an Action beget other permanent Actions. But let's say communicators, vehicles, stuff like that - stuff you'd probably let a Wealthy character just buy, as long as they had access. Why not let the Invention Action be the access?
~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 16, 2009 0:40:40 GMT -5
That's a nice idea... but what if I wanted to build a Flight Belt for my Teammate Wonderman (That's how he originally had to fly... Tony Stark built it) It's a permenant item, and gives him an Action... what about that?
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2009 9:19:31 GMT -5
I don't get whats wrong with paying LOE for inventions.
LOE = the medium by which a character improves.
I've said it before and I'll say it again; allowing people to improve their characters at no real "cost" just because some time has passed, is stupid.
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 9:49:05 GMT -5
That's a nice idea... but what if I wanted to build a Flight Belt for my Teammate Wonderman (That's how he originally had to fly... Tony Stark built it) It's a permenant item, and gives him an Action... what about that? It's just asking too much, Dio, that's why. You can't just hand out free Actions and Modifiers and expect the game to still be balanced. The best I can offer is that Wonderman needs to save up enough LOEs (or gain white stones) to buy Flight outright. It's just like regular heroic progression - the main advantage is that you've just allowed someone to buy a new superheroic Action that they ordinarily couldn't pick up after character creation. I think I'm done discussing this. ~TWF
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2009 10:05:22 GMT -5
Personally I'm confused regarding the mentality that paying LOE to improve is somehow bad...
As I understand it, it seems to come from a massive misunderstanding of what "experience" (by any name, in any RPG) suggests. Experience is not your memories, nor is it your accumulated knowledge. Experience is the sum total of the things that now make you who you are. Your spiritual essence, as it were. I would argue that this is EXACTLY what a good artist or writer puts into their work (which is why such people typically feel drained after working on a particularly important project), and exactly what Reed Richards invests when he builds important equipment, and exactly what Stephen Strange invests when he creates a talisman to protect one of his allies...
But putting all that aside, I really feel that theres a big problem here with perception. It is one *possible* explanation, looking at the comics, that Tony Stark just built Wonder Man a Flight Belt and it was all hunky dory... but its far from the only way it could be looked at in game terms. Its entirely possible that Wonder Man took on new Challenge Stones to get flight, and bought the reduction for "weaker away from source" so that he had to use it with a belt. Tony Stark happened to be the resident inventor, so the GM said "sure, Tony builds you one..."
Its not as if several bad things didn't happen to Simon subsequent to him getting that belt that could certainly be considered the result of him taking on new challenges.
Its equally legitimate to look at it this way; he paid LOE for Flight, but since he had no way of suddenly obtaining Flight that made sense with his power set at that time, the GM ruled it had to come from an item of some kind...
|
|
|
Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 16, 2009 11:07:02 GMT -5
WK, originally I was going to say that LOE should be paid for inventions but that was violently opposed. What is a fair system for charging a resource for invention for an inventing character? My alternative was an invention pool that allowed the player to pick between using his invention stones for creating inventions or "deploying" those inventions. Do you think that's not enough?
As for the idea of 'permanent' deployment. There should be more cost to doing that. But what is reasonable and fair? Powering up a teammate is just as valuable as powering up yourself, so I'm not sure making an invention for someone else would merit much of a discount. However we do want to encourage teamwork so perhaps a small discount should be given in such cases. I'm really not sure.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2009 11:12:35 GMT -5
As far as I can tell, the only one violently opposing the idea of spending LOE for the effects of Inventions is Dio, and I don't understand his complaint at all.
LOE is the currency with which we pay to improve our characters. Whats the problem?
|
|