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Post by takewithfood on Feb 15, 2009 11:06:07 GMT -5
Hey folks! (Yes, that's right! Folks, not gang today!) Everyone knows there's a problem with Ninja. (The Action, not an actual clan of ninja. If we had a problem with actual ninja we'd probably all be dead by now.) The problem as I see it is: 1. Free extra weapon bonus for too small of a price (we're not sure what happens when you use two similar weapons with the proposed weapons-as-effects system, anyway) 2. Concentration is a specialty.. whassup with that? What I like about Ninja is that it has its own set of specialties. I think it should be like Black Ops, only with subtly different specialties. Black Ops is more about the big picture, whereas Ninja feels more to me about getting through a single mission, and with a greater focus on assassination. I propose: - making Ninja a set of specialties like Thieving and Black Ops, probably with an Ability Bonus (to keep it on par with Thieving; that, or we take the ability bonus off Thieving - there's no way a thief is better than a ninja by default). - the base cost should be cheap (AN + 1 or +2), but should have options you can add that make it a movement action (stealthy movement, climbing) and/or make it operate like Concentration. - it shouldn't be a combat action anymore, but like Black Ops it should combine with Close Combat. I'd feel better about this if it didn't come with an ability bonus. I imagine players with Ninja using it a lot, in conjunction with some other Action. In combat they'd probably spend 1 action on Close Combat and their second Action on Ninja, combining or shifting to defense (and possibly putting in a stone of movement in case their opponent tries to escape). When moving around, I imagine them using Acrobatics or the like to handle jumps and such, with stones in Ninja to keep quiet and hidden. Make sense? Thoughts? ~TWF
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Post by Neros on Feb 15, 2009 16:34:14 GMT -5
Hmm.. Not bad.. So its kinda works like concentration just for some actions instead of all.. And making it into a Thieving/Black Ops action with movement aswel works fine for me.. So far, its Ok..
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 15, 2009 23:17:30 GMT -5
Frankly... as you've described it I don't see any difference between that and Thieving...
Silly tropes about "Ninjas are always kewler" aside... sneaking, breaking & entering, and attacking people who can't see you... are the basic elements of what makes a good Thief. Or for that matter, a good Black Bag Operative. Or a good Spider-Man.
Lets be honest... if it doesn't include combat, "Ninja" is just another name for something already covered by a bunch of other actions.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 15, 2009 23:45:41 GMT -5
WK's got a point.... We've got to think of a way to Balance Ninja, but still keep it unique... OR get rid of it, and leave it to a series of Generic Actions and a good imagination to describe.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 15, 2009 23:50:05 GMT -5
I agree that Ninja is basically covered by a combination of Black Ops and Thieving (I pretty much said that in my post), but it's a little of both, and that's the problem. It sucks that a typical Ninja character would have to buy both of those Actions to represent one skillset.
I know I'm splitting hairs here. Perhaps it would be easiest to just add a few more specialties to Black Ops and let ninja characters just rename it. I'm totally okay with that too.
Honestly, though, Ninja really doesn't need to imitate Close Combat.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2009 9:22:00 GMT -5
Personally? I think any difference between Black Ops, Ninja (non-combat version), and Thievery, are entirely questionable. All three require the exact same skill set, and I think they should be blended into one action that can be named whatever the user wants it to. TBH, I can't think of a single specialty that could apply to one that couldn't apply to all three.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 10:01:30 GMT -5
*shrug* I'm okay with that too. I just spent 10 minutes trying to come up with a good generic name (covert.. something?) but Thieving is still the best catch-all term.
I'm for AN+0, no ability bonus (an ability bonus won't fit with some specialties). If we feel it's unbalanced or just weird that stuff like Assassination and Propaganda are lumped in beside such common stuff as Pick Pocketing, we can set aside some advanced specialties and give access to them only as a +1 CL option (this would balance Black Ops, for example) but meh.
This basically covers Private Investigation and stuff too. I can write up a text block if people seem to agree with the idea.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2009 10:07:00 GMT -5
I like the idea, but...
Propaganda? How is that a specialty of any of those actions?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 10:08:39 GMT -5
Just a theory: the fact that it's a listed Black Ops specialty?
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2009 10:17:13 GMT -5
That's... really strange. I guess they make no distinction between genuine Black Ops and anything else that happens to be handled by the CIA
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 16, 2009 11:03:10 GMT -5
You're basically taking the combat out of Ninja? Totally DISAGREE. It may need reform, but this is just turning it into a watered down Thieving which has a way cheaper AN cost anyways.
Ok here are the things that Ninja does.
1. Acts as close combat or ranged combat. 2. By taking a specialty, acts as concentration. 3. Can be used for stealthy/ninja like actions. 4. Allows for Dual Wielding weapons.
The cost is AN+5.
1. I'd charge this as AN+2. 2. Concentration costs AN+3 3. Thieving costs AN 4. Value of adding another weapon bonus? +2 CL.
Solution? I'd just strip the concentration from ninja. If you want concentration, buy it separately. There are a lot of things packed into ninja, and I think if you take out what doesn't seem to fit, it should be fine.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 16, 2009 11:14:11 GMT -5
Uh... and then you end up with an even cheaper version of Ninja that still does what Close AND Ranged Combat do, only better?
Sorry, no.
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 16, 2009 11:34:16 GMT -5
Uh... and then you end up with an even cheaper version of Ninja that still does what Close AND Ranged Combat do, only better? Sorry, no. How is it cheaper? It's still AN+5, you're just removing concentration from it and making people buy that separately.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 11:37:29 GMT -5
But why should it act like Close Combat? It seems as though it should be a separate skill, to me. I also don't understand why dual wielding and ninja are inseparable.
What's wrong with it being basically thieving? Buy Concentration and Close Combat separately. I know it's a lot of Actions, but we've discussed expanding the 9 Action limit to 12.
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 16, 2009 11:44:10 GMT -5
Ninja 5 = 15W Close Combat 5 = 3W Ranged Combat 5 = 3W Thieving 5 = 3W About the only thing that makes Ninja unique is that dual wielding thing. Perhaps in 1.0 getting that second free weapon was threatening, but in 2.0 where the weapons have been nerfed significantly? IS getting the second bonus from Ninja that threatening? I think trying to eliminate Ninja for an ability that was useful in 1.0 but not so much in 2.0 just doesn't make sense. But why should it act like Close Combat? It seems as though it should be a separate skill, to me. I also don't understand why dual wielding and ninja are inseparable. Umm because ninja actually IS used as combat? Particularly when ninja is used as assassination implicitly implies some kind of combat, whether it's a knife to the throat or a blowpipe with poison darts. Why is it overpowered to have a suite of abilities that include combat in addition to stealth?
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