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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 10:17:32 GMT -5
Hey gang,
Force Blast has been debated several times in recent months, and never really to any satisfactory conclusion. However, I think we have a chance at putting this Action right in 2.0.
The issues people have had before have been (afaik):
1. Weak compared to Ranged Combat. RC has the same cost and comes with a free weapon modifier (even if it requires a weapon modifier). This has been partially fixed in that we've altered weapons into weapons-as-effects.
2. Energy intensive in general. Like Close Combat, Force Blasts tend to eat up energy like nobody's business. I think this is somewhat fixed by General Modifiers, which are a little cheaper than Targeting and can have a wide range of flavour to suit your Foce Blast.
3. It's almost always preferable to just buy a Mastery. For +1 CL you get some free advantages, some of which are broken like crazy.
So, we need to make sure we find (or have found) adequate solutions to these issues. Force Blast is a common power in comics, but hardly anyone actually chooses it in practice in MURPG. That makes it an important problem.
One house rule I had been thinking of before getting involved with the 2.0 project was to hand out +2 CL worth of Advantages for free. This isn't quite the same as reducing the cost (it makes powerful FBs mandatory) and I feel it puts it closer on par with Ranged Combat and Masteries. Thoughts?
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 10:37:45 GMT -5
Well, if theres a general consensus in that direction I'll cede the point and move on. And IF that's the case, then giving +2 CL worth of advantages to each Force Blast is fine by me...
BUT...
I disagree, rather strongly, with point 3. Mastery options are almost always cheaper than they would be to buy alone, and the reason is that Masteries get expensive very quickly already. To make them pay for options (which I realize is not what you're proposing) would get grizzly.
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On a related note, we need a thread for Masteries because, if NOTHING else... we need to balance out the options provided to Mastery Force Blasts. Anybody who actually thinks that "X2 damage" is somehow equivalent to "attack vs. Dur to disable" is out of their mind.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 10:42:58 GMT -5
Point 3 is basically that Mastery of Sonics with your only option a +1 CL Force Blast that does x2 damage or AoE vs Dur to stun is only AN + 1 CL. Even just a Mastery of Fire is probably going to work out to x2 damage for only +1 CL, plus you get a discount on Flight and the ability to buy neat options with LOEs later. There is no requirement for other options, so technically this sort of thing is allowed.
And yeah, I'm trying to save Masteries for last, as they're a big issue and it's tied to a lot of other factors. We'll get there, I hope.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 15:42:31 GMT -5
Why don't we just use the FB as a RC Modifier rule... by proxy, that would make Force Blast fall under our new Weapon Rules, thus making it just add both flavor and advantages (and possibly a small modifier) to our Ranged Combat....
IE: Cyclops has the most powerful single force blast in Marvel... arguably... It can punch through almost anything, and blow up mountains.... SO when John, his player, makes his CAD, he gives him a +3 modifier, for that extra oomph, 2x Damage because he feels that's soemthing that would apply, and pays for the Optic Blast to act as a Level 3 Material for Armor Penetration. That means that anything short of mystical metals and Adamantium will be penetrated. Then, he turns around and puts on Out of Control without Device onto the power, because of little Scotty's brain damage, and well let's add this up..
Modifier: +3 (+2) = 5 + 2 +1 =8 - 2 =6.. That's a Level 6 Force Blast so it costs him 4 Stones, then, he has to pay the extra 3 Stones because he made it a Level 3 Material, so that's a GRAND total of 7 Stones... His Force Blast now,when fired, will be X2 Damage, and a Level 3 AP and will add up to 3 stones from the General Pool to Cyclops' attack.
Not bad.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 15:45:16 GMT -5
I like what Dio's saying there...
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Post by Jet on Feb 17, 2009 15:52:38 GMT -5
Here's one of House Rules Im planning to add to my games (all one of them). Feel free to discuss and modify if you wish (or scrap all the way)
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 15:57:38 GMT -5
At least initially it strikes me as oversimplification to fold Force Blast into Ranged Combat. They feel distinct to me, but maybe they shouldn't. In theory there isn't a huge difference between firing a blast of energy out of your hands and firing a blast of energy out of a GUN in your hands. ^_^
Something still eats at me about this (I've read of this kind of idea before) but I suspect I'll have to playtest it before I figure out the problem.
Can we make Force Blast separate from an actual generic modifier, even if the pricing comes out very similar? For starters it should count as a Weapon Modifier, or else everyone will fire a gun AND a force blast as part of the same attack, because it would be stupid not to.
Also, I guess having a Force Blast obviates the need for Targeting, since they're essentially the same mechanic? If not, how would they work in concert?
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 16:04:35 GMT -5
Well, if we're trying to keep the stones down by sticking (mostly) to one Action + one Modifier, then Force Blast, being a Modifier, would negate the potential to use Targeting anyway...
At any rate, I have no problem with making Force Blast a separate Action, even though it never worked in MURPG, and here's why; Force Blast's key problem was that not only did it suck up energy like nuts, it was STILL weaker than just picking up a gun most of the time. That won't be the case here, since people aren't likely going to throw out 16+ stone attacks with an energy investment of 4 or 5 stones.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 16:13:47 GMT -5
Um... I was suggesting having the Force Blast as a Modifier... IE under Modifiers
MODIFIERS Photographic Memory Force Blast +3 - 2x Damage - Level 3 Material
I wasn't suggesting it become the Generic Modifier, we just worked out the price and it cost the same, in a twist of Irony.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 16:14:31 GMT -5
I think everybody got that. I certainly did.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 16:16:57 GMT -5
Okay, Dio, but if you thought about that for all of three seconds you'd realize that someone could and would do this:
Action One: 5 stones into Ranged Combat + 3 stones from Force Blast. x2 damage from my Force Blast, and I'm also using a gun for another x2 damage so its x3 damage total.
That's right, someone is using a weapon modifier AND their Force Blast modifier at the same time. That's how the rules currently work: a weapon and a modifier. If you aren't firing a weapon at the same time, you're deliberately giving up on the free bonus.
I'm asking if we can somehow avoid this.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 16:17:47 GMT -5
Yes... by only allowing 1 modifier at a time.
Force Blast is a Modifier The weapon is a Modifier.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 16:19:37 GMT -5
Yes... by only allowing 1 modifier at a time. Force Blast is a Modifier The weapon is a Modifier. That isn't how it's currently stated, WK, and you know it. Weapons are not modifiers - if you want to make them modifiers, then that's fine. Because up until now, I was under the impression that you could use Ranged Combat with a gun, and apply a "Targeting" generic modifier. We haven't said anything to the contrary that I"m aware of. ~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 16:22:51 GMT -5
Sorry... I've always been under the impression that even though they didn't have a "+", Weapons were still modifiers, just like in MURPG. "Weapon Modifier" (they DO still modify the action...)
That said you've got a major point though that I hadn't considered. Without a bonus, being unable to use a weapon AND Targeting (or whatever) with your Ranged Combat would suck. So you have to be able to do that.
SO... I guess that leads me to conclude that Force Blast should be an Action rather than a Modifier. Which as I said before, I'm fine with anyway since we're changing the underpinnings of the rest of the system that made FB suck in the first place.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 16:28:28 GMT -5
Yeah, it's strangely awkward, isn't it? I think that's the trouble with trying to describe subtly different effects (ranged combat and force blasts are similar, yet obviously different) while keeping the system as simplistic and elegant as possible. Something has to give, unfortunately.
I agree with what you say about how FBs don't look so bad now that Ranged Combat has been cut down to size. I still advocate a free 2 CLs of advantages, though, since Ranged Combat inherently has a weapon bonus.
I'm going to think of weird fixes for folding FB into RC but I can't promise anything will come to mind.
~TWF
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