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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 12:32:46 GMT -5
Post by UrbanBlue on Feb 17, 2009 12:32:46 GMT -5
What are we going to do about PA?
I love it in concept (as seen by my Avatar), but it may need to be retooled.
Specifically Cost Cuts, Multiple Actions
What do you think?
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 12:35:18 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 12:35:18 GMT -5
There are a number of things that need to be addressed... but first and foremost, I want to ask this;
Am I the only one who doesn't understand why PA gets so many options so much cheaper than every other hero? Abilities I get... the PA character has to pay for them twice, so maybe its fair they get some discount... but why should it be cheaper for Iron Man to buy the ability to shoot his enemies with a force blast than for Cyclops to do the same??
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 12:38:47 GMT -5
Post by UrbanBlue on Feb 17, 2009 12:38:47 GMT -5
There are a number of things that need to be addressed... but first and foremost, I want to ask this; Am I the only one who doesn't understand why PA gets so many options so much cheaper than every other hero? Abilities I get... the PA character has to pay for them twice, so maybe its fair they get some discount... but why should it be cheaper for Iron Man to buy the ability to shoot his enemies with a force blast than for Cyclops to do the same?? I don't know. Close Combat -1 Ranged Combat -1 Flight -1 (Arguable) Phase Shift -1 Force Blast 0 Invisible 0
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 13:55:01 GMT -5
Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 13:55:01 GMT -5
I have a couple things to say about PA:
1. To (try to) answer WK's very valid question about why PA characters get discounts, I can only guess. My best guess is that PA characters are limited (very slightly) to certain Actions/Mods (a PA suit that has Mastery of Magic is unlikely), or that they were trying to encourage players to choose certain traditional Actions/Mods. Even if that's the case, they were misguided and overshot by a huge margin.
That goes for Abilities too: even if they have a good reason to offer a discount, HALF price is stupid.
2. I see almost no difference between a PA character and a Transform Self character: Both have two CADs, at least one of which is decidedly heroic (with powers and what not). The rest is just flavour. You might argue that PA systems are vulnerable to EMP and whatever, but not only is that mechanic poorly conceived, but it's not enough to distinguish the two.
I highly suggest that we work out a solid Transform Self package (I'm actually thinking of dividing it up into ~3 types of Transform Self) and let PA characters use the same rules with different flavour. The 3 types of Transform Self should account for:
a) Strong "hero" CAD with all the powers + weak or mundane "human" CAD with normal range Abilities and mostly just flavour Actions
b) Strong "hero" CAD with powers + capable "human" CAD with significant/important Actions and Modifiers (Example: Tony Stark and Bruce Banner have expensive "human" CADs)
c) Decent/Strong "hero" CAD that undergoes some kind of change. (Example: Colossus, Emma Frost)
Arguably we should have rules for multiple transformations (example: Wolfsbane) but to some extent that is stepping into Metamorphosis territory. Hard to say.
~TWF
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 14:04:30 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 14:04:30 GMT -5
Honestly... as far as P.A. goes... I have no problem just writing it up as any other CAD, with the Armor-generated actions getting a cost reduction for being equipment based (weaker away from source or whatever), and with Abilities doing the same.
While we're at it, I'm sure theres some reason the same mechanic wouldn't work for Transform Self... but I can't figure out what that reason would be.
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 14:20:13 GMT -5
Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 14:20:13 GMT -5
Yeah, that's actually along the lines of what I was thinking - at least for type B characters. (Type A characters can maybe have their "human" CADs for free, or close to it, as long as they're just taking normal Abilities, flavour Actions and basics like Social Skills.)
Any Actions on the "human" CAD that can't be used while in PA for some reason can also have a discount, as far as I'm concerned.
Type C characters are a different story, though. Fortunately, Type C characters are pretty much nothing like PA, so we can ignore them for now.
~TWF
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 14:24:31 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 14:24:31 GMT -5
It should work for type C characters as well... the fact that Hulk changes into Hulk doesn't change the fact that some of his abilities are only available under certain circumstances (which would be, IMO, the textbook definition of "weaker away from source")
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 15:08:43 GMT -5
Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 15:08:43 GMT -5
I put Hulk in the B category, as the two CADs are very different.
I reserve the C category for characters who don't change much in their second form (Colossus gets a little stronger/more durable, gets his toughness, but otherwise he's basically the same. The changes to his CAD aren't that great.)
~TWF
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 15:50:07 GMT -5
Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 15:50:07 GMT -5
So, Everyone with PA has PA actions that are weaker away from source... and you don't see the reason why they reduced the prices like they did...
Close Combat - Weaker away from Source (-2) Ranged Combat - Weaker away from Source (-2) Flight - Weaker away from Source (-2) Phase Shift - Weaker away from Source (-2) Force Blast - Weaker away from Source (-2) Invisible - Weaker away from Source (-2)
You starting to get it now? They took all the actions that would traditionally be in a Powered Armor, and added in Power Weaker Away from Source.... It didn't dawn on me till WK said to make it the norm... that it already WAS the norm for traditional actions.... Except that some got less of a discount for some reason....
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 15:56:29 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 15:56:29 GMT -5
... because they never thought the rules out. You're assuming entirely too much intelligence and forethought on behalf of the designers, I'm afraid.
Power Armor is absurdly broken AND difficult to use because they went way overboard in granting advantages to it.
I believe you'll find if you analyze my proposal a bit more that even though you'll get some Actions at the same (or greater) discount than P.A. already provides, the vast majority of P.A.s real advantages (multiple actions/panel, gigantic reductions in the cost of weapons and weapon options, and so on) have dried up completely.
For instance... "weaker away from source" would not apply to a gigantic energy sword wielded by Iron Man anymore than it would apply to Captain America's shield.
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 15:58:17 GMT -5
Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 15:58:17 GMT -5
True... that's why Mega Weapons are a completely different modifier (WM +1 to be exact, just like crafting an item)
You're right on one thing though... all the Multiple action bull definitely disappears, but I was just laughing at what I found, not railing against what you said lol.
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 16:03:32 GMT -5
Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 16:03:32 GMT -5
It isn't right to just charge -2 CL for everything. Trust, me it isn't. All you have to do to break the #%*@ out of that is make a PA character who's human looks like this:
Int 2 Str 1 Agi 1 Spd 1 Dur 1 Rec 1 Pool 1
(and maybe 1 white of Social Skills and some flavour crap).
For ~4 white you've just added 2 free AN to EVERYTHING on your CAD. That will not fly. This is why we need a clear definition between different types of "I have two CADs" characters.
If your "human" CAD is going to be that weak, it might as well be free (that meager 4 white is probably worth the relative challenge of having to lug a giant suit of armor around). Pay normal costs for your "Hero" CAD and deal with it.
If you actually put some decent junk on you "human" CAD (high Int, any type of powers, etc) then maybe discounts are warranted.
~TWF
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 16:05:43 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 16:05:43 GMT -5
So you're saying scrap the cost reductions entirely, since the "hero" form really is the "main form" anyway...
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 16:08:52 GMT -5
Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 16:08:52 GMT -5
In some cases, yes. But that's the important part: in SOME cases. I've already outlined the differences between cases - I'm not doing it again.
~TWF
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 16:09:10 GMT -5
Post by GhostKnight on Feb 17, 2009 16:09:10 GMT -5
The multiple actions per panel is because characters like Warmachine that can shot his missiles, machine guns and what not against multiple enemies at the same time while flying because the armor helps with targeting the multiple opponents and keep him hoovering.
Well, that's think the explanation goes. Maybe if you specify what actions are aided by the internal computer via a higher cost it would help.
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