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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 19:27:08 GMT -5
Post by takewithfood on Feb 17, 2009 19:27:08 GMT -5
Oh, gotcha. You're right about that, then. ^__^
I got carried away. Tee hee!
~TWF
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 19:29:23 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 19:29:23 GMT -5
Okay, you CAN move with Strength... but nobody in their right mind DOES.
TWF, I agree that its boring to play that way... but you don't know some of the guys I play with.
Personally I think it'd be dull as dirt to run the exact same Great Axe Wielding, maximum Strength, Power Attacking Fighter for the entire run of D&D 3, but once people realize the ridiculously advantageous damage output of that build, thats exactly what happened.
In my experience, too many players will inevitably do anything that is advantageous without respect for its effects on the game, their fellow players, or the GM.
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 19:38:10 GMT -5
Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 19:38:10 GMT -5
Man, you must play with the same style players I sometimes do...
It's why I have more leeway, and some of the radical ideas that I do about this system... because I have seen this system abused so much that DCF would just shoot the parents and go about their business...
For instance.... Collateral Damage Man
Force Blast 10 - Radiation Element - Concussive Force Extra Element - Area Effect - 2x Damage - Out of Control without Device - Cannot Be Improved by Lines - Maximum Force (10)
MODIFIER Immunity to Radiation
Someone actually showed up with that and wanted to play... I told them to go home...
Trust me... I know this system can be abused, and honestly some people do because it's easy. But that is why you have to have players that you can look at and know that they are going to build towards concept regardless of effectiveness.
I know one player who's dream is to play a character who is completely normal in every respect (2's and 1's in every ability) without any sort of formal training or anything like that... His only power is that he's completely unkillable.... He just won't F'n die... That's a concept... The character has almost NO functionality, but he's fun to play, especially since he named the character Skidmark...
Abusive players need oversight, true, but ANYTHING we do will eventually be abused... we should be more concerned with both accuracy to the medium, fun factor, balance and ease of use than we are to stopping idiot power gamers.
Oh... and yes... I move with Strength all the time... Several characters I've made have that as their only movement option that gets them farther than 100 yards. Why? Because I like the Hulk, and I like the fact that he leaps about like a Flea. (literally... by comparison...)
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 19:49:16 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 19:49:16 GMT -5
I'm not saying we can make the system abuse-proof. I'm saying that your idea regarding Speed is totally unnecessary, ignores the fact that stone output is inherently advantageous (i.e. having a high Speed is its own reward), and the idea that without any cost increase Speed should provide such an enormous benefit is crazy. Furthermore, Speed is ALREADY the best Ability in the game by a slight margin over Strength.
But MOST importantly... all of the advantages you want are NOT seen in Marvel comics. They're things the Flash can do... but no speedster in the history of Marvel was remotely on the Flashes level. Flash is, bottom line, much more than a speedster... he's an outright master of molecular motion and time/space.
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 20:01:43 GMT -5
Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 20:01:43 GMT -5
I'll cede the Flash points to you on that... BUT I must counter with the fact that my idea does not in fact up stone output... It lessens it.
Example using our two test characters
Blob: Action 1: 10 stones into Close Combat to whomp Pietro, 2 stones into Defense Action 2: Nothing.. just being Immovable.
Attack: 8 stones Defense: 6 stones
Quicksilver Action 1: 6 stones into Close Combat (speed) to whomp Blob Action 2: 2 stones in Speed to move towards the large plank of wood I saw on the other side of the street Action 3: 2 stones in Strength to pick up a piece of plank of wood Action 4: 5 stones of Close Combat (speed) +1 for the Plank of Wood to attempt to whomp Blob Again Action 5: Nothing... I'm out of freakin stones!
SO... While the Blob can act next turn because he didn't spend all his stones, Pietro used ALL his stones, did seventy different things, but accomplished nothing, while he takes 1w of damage from Blob's attack...
What's broken?
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 21:43:46 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 21:43:46 GMT -5
Uh... the fact that you ignored the obvious tactic that any smart person (including everyone who has ever written Quicksilver over the years) has done?
That is... hit someone a bunch of times and then run away so that they can't hit back.
In the case of the Blob, you don't even have to get very far.
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 21:48:05 GMT -5
Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 21:48:05 GMT -5
So split my stones into 5 attacks? For what.. 2 stones a piece? That bounce off of Blob like so many skittles off the rainbow?
Do you see what I'm saying though? Quicksilver came at Blob with everything he had, had time to grab stuff, hit him with stuff, move around, everything... but HE'S the one getting damage...
Now... I can see if Quicksilver put 15 stones into Close Combat to "Around the World" Blob, but that wouldn't have taken Blob out, and he'd STILL be damaging him...
Anyway you slice it... It's not broken, and I've proven it, unless YOU can provide a concrete EXAMPLE of it being broken...
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 22:04:39 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 22:04:39 GMT -5
Honestly? Your example sucked. We all know its always advantageous to put all your stones into one attack rather than split them... and I notice you strategically split stones into multiple attacks... HOWEVER... to abuse your system I A) Would not play Quicksilver and B) Would use someone who had multiple, separate attack actions and C) Used his final action to get behind cover or out of range of his enemies. Yes... its energy intensive. But since you can ALWAYS outdistance your opponents, you can run away for as long as it takes to regenerate your energy and keep throwing attacks at them. Its also totally unnecessary. A) No matter how fast YOU move, the world around you only moves at its normal rate. In other words, you can't type any faster at a keyboard than the keyboard can handle input, or than the computer can handle input. You can't fire a gun more times than its built for. You can't throw more objects (they still travel at normal speed once they've left you) B) Having more stones IS doing more "stuff" as has been explained to you repeatedly. There is no reason other than pure stubbornness to deny the fact that if Pietro puts all of his Speed stones into Close Combat, he's not actually throwing twenty punches while running circles around his opponent. Likewise, Pietro can take a Speed bonus for just about any other Action, within reason. C) The comics don't reflect your claim. Again, you keep wanting to make Marvel speedsters into The Flash. Thats just not the case. D) Given that we're allowing people to CHOOSE their energy regeneration at character creation, your argument about burning up all of your energy falls way short.
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 22:23:23 GMT -5
Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 22:23:23 GMT -5
Ah! So you would intentionally abuse the system.... to prove it's abusable... Way to go.... Real mature.
I KNOW exactly how to Abuse this system... Hell.. it's MY system...
But... you're point is moot... because... you CAN'T break it with Pietro.
He's the prototypical speedster in the Marvel Universe.. Quicksilver, Whizzer, Speed Demon... all of them were built off the same mold. To say you can't break the system with one, means it's balanced for all.
By saying you would have to build a character SPECIFICALLY to break this system, not only proves my point, but actually cedes it from you. You can't break the system without intentionally trying, and are trying to shift the argument somewhere else so no one sees.
As for your second set of ABC's
A) I've seen gunmen fire a full clip from a 6 shooter in 2 seconds, don't tell me that a gun fires at only one speed. Secondly, I have typed several times faster than my keyboard can handle at times... Go do something else while it catches up... several speedsters have done that. Thirdly... And yes... I'm going to go back to the Flash, mainly because I'm not THAT much of a watcher of Quicksilver to know if he's done this... But it's perfectly plausible to pick up an armful of pebbles and throw thousands of shots. Remember the Justice Lords episodes of Justice League? Flash does that to the evil Superman... Don't tell me the world only moves at one speed.
B) Not really... Having more stones is being able to put forth MORE EFFORT... not being able to do more stuff... You are still limited to 2 actions. I can do as much effort as I want... I still won't be able to Lift that Car, Throw it and then Run 100 yards back... But a Speedster CAN do that... and I've seen a few... 5 stones to cyclone the car into the air, 2 stones to move over to the badguy, 3 stones to move the hell outta dodge and drop it. That's 3 actions.
C)I've sited several examples (Yes, 1 is a Flash related one, but that's due to lack of knowledge on my part that I openly admit) in comics where you're wrong.
D) Stone limits are still stone limits... Just because I WANT a 6 energy regen, doesn't mean anything more than it did in Core marvel...
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 22:36:26 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 22:36:26 GMT -5
LOL what???
Because Pietros (crappy) book CAD and your (crappy) example don't break the system you've devised, the system is all good?
I'm sorry... I refuse to argue with you when you're working from that kind of basis.
The rest of your arguments are just gobbledygook. Anyone who knows anything at all about guns will tell you that theres a limit to how many times you can fire a gun before the machinery breaks down from heat & stress, and as far as computers... yes, you can "out-type" the systems ability to keep up, but given that system has to catch up for anything meaningful to happen, you didn't buy yourself much
<Edit> And I'm sorry you don't understand the meaning of the word "playtest"... the word itself implies the intent to break the system. You ALWAYS plan for what a player CAN do... not what the designers intent might be.
Your system is easily breakable and more importantly... totally unnecessary to reflect anything that occurs in Marvel comics.
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 22:43:25 GMT -5
Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 22:43:25 GMT -5
Firstly, I don't care how crappy you think Pietro's CAD is... within the system itself, you've said yourself that you can't break my system. That's a point for me. Stop trying to shift this into my misinterpretation. I didn't say that because MY example didn't break it it's good... I said because YOU either CAN'T or refuse to break it with that SAME CAD that my system is good.. Get facts straight. There you go again, attempting to deflect things. My arguments are not in the least bit false to prove my example, at least when it comes to guns, I submit the following video evidence that you're wrong and that I'm at least half as credible as you're trying to prove I'm not. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9ccsb1v6o That's a normal human shooting 8 shots in 1 second on one target, or on 2 targets in 1.5 or so seconds, and then shooting 6 shots, reloading and then shooting 6 more in 2.3 or so seconds... if a NORMAL old man can do this... How many clips do you think Pietro can go through in 30 seconds?
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 22:46:15 GMT -5
Post by WildKnight on Feb 17, 2009 22:46:15 GMT -5
Moving your point here to another thread in hopes of getting this one back on track...
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PA 2.0
Feb 17, 2009 22:46:43 GMT -5
Post by Dionon on Feb 17, 2009 22:46:43 GMT -5
Oh thank goodness... I tried to do that 3 posts ago,but we just kept at it lol
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PA 2.0
Jun 29, 2009 13:05:41 GMT -5
Post by comicfan on Jun 29, 2009 13:05:41 GMT -5
This thread seems dead, though I'm posting anyway just to show my view on the discussion/argument. I'm something of a poster boy for Powered Armor loving GMs.
Multiple Actions for Powered Armor Characters I can kind of see the point with the multiple actions thing. They honestly didn't explain it in the book, I think it was intended for characters like War Machine who have weapons by the crapton, and have fired all of them in one panel, To be honest I just looked at it as the character's only doing two actions, the armors doing the rest of them, thus Ironman can do 7 actions, but the other 5 have to be functions of the armor. I have on occasions thought of play testing the Armor with the usual 2 actions a turn, but under my logic, I never saw reason to go through with it.
Powered Armor Discounts Ok, MURPG did explain this one, and I find it completely reasonable, and acceptable. The Actions are technology based, not inherent, and they are functions of the Armor. You lose the armor, for whatever reason (It was destroyed, you took it apart, and forgot how to reassemble it, or you trusted the janitor a little more than you should and he jacked it for a joy ride) You lost the actions, and abilities until you get it back, or build another.
Powered Armor Characters as Transform Self I've played both Transform self, and Powered Armor characters several times. Unless you're making Ironman with the Extremis. THEY ARE NOTHING ALIKE!!!
A) See my arguement for the discounts - You lose the Armor, you lost the abilities. Unless you got hit by a power suppressant, Transform Self characters will ALWAYS have their Powers.
B) Powered Armor Characters don't have to spend lines of experience to boost their abilities. I know for a fact 9 times out of 10, a PA character is going to get Technology, and Inventing so they can build/upgrade Powered Armor. This alone makes PA Characters a seperate catagory from TS Characters. If they're unsatisfied with the armor, then they can upgrade it until they are satisfied,or build a new suit.
C) PA characters aren't permanently pwned if they lose the armor. If a TS Character got hit by a Power suppressant that had a permanent effect...you're 40, 50, or 60 stone character, is now about a 5-10 stone person. PA characters that lose their Armor, can build a new suit to replace it, as I mentioned in Argument B. As I said 9 times out of 10, a Player opts to be the inventor, and 'driver' of Powered Armor, thus they lose the armor, they're not completely pwned as a power suppressed TS character is. As they have to hope the loss of powers is temporary.
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