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Post by takewithfood on Feb 19, 2009 11:50:17 GMT -5
My problems with Masteries: a) Buying a Mastery with just a +1 CL Force Blast option is almost always better than buying a Force Blast on its own. (You get free advantages, and can buy other neat options later down the road.) b) Discount on Flight could/should be a discount on any one Action that is reasonable. Possibly limited to movement Actions, but maybe not. c) We need to hammer out what Transform into Element gives you. Some people suggest a small package of free stuff, others (including me) tend to make it a -1 CL to stuff that only works when transformed. d) Likewise, we need to hammer out what Must Exist As Element does, if anything. Do you take it AND Transform Into Element? Instead of it? e) Free Force Field. This has been houseruled in a dozen different ways. f) Can "Create/Manipulate" only make walls? What does "Unlimited C/M" do? g) No one ever seems to think that the +1CL "scope" advantage should apply to their Mastery. h) I'm sure there's more; this is just what came to mind all at once, without even pausing to think. ~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 19, 2009 12:01:24 GMT -5
a) I've said this before, and I'm sure I'll say it again. I just don't see this as a huge problem. Mastery Options HAVE to be cheaper than getting the option would be solo, because otherwise Masteries would cost too much to be of any use. I think its as simple as GMs just not allowing players to abuse the system by buying "Force Blast by Proxy" via Mastery (i.e. just getting the Force Blast and no other options).
I do think theres an additional issue though. What, exactly is granted by a Mastery Force Blast needs to be regularized. Anybody who thinks that X2 damage is NEARLY equivalent in value to "attack vs. Durability to stun" is an idiot. Personally I think that Mastery Force Blasts should offer X2 damage or Area Affect, period (but see my commentary on paying for extraordinary scope)
b) I've always considered this to be a -1 discount on any movement action. I'm uneasy about the idea of letting it be ANY action that seems reasonable, as players will often have some wonky ideas on what is "reasonable."
c) Ugh. Yeah, uh... what a pain in the butt. And you can't get rid of it because its so necessary to comic book-dom.
d) Instead of, IMO. I think Must Exist As is pretty obvious most of the time, and it comes with some HEFTY limitations. Generally speaking, players that take this are pretty dumb anyway.
e) I say get rid of it. Force Field is too good to be a cheap mastery option
f) Create/Manipulate should ONLY make barriers and simple objects (but see comments on extraordinary scope)
g) Extraordinary Scope should apply any time you're getting something that everybody else with a Mastery (and that option) doesn't get. If you want your Force Blast to be an area attack vs. Durability, then yeah... you've got extraordinary scope. If you want to be able to generate Force Fields with "create/manipulate"... yeah, you should pay for extraordinary scope.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 19, 2009 12:07:56 GMT -5
I actually think I agree on all counts, WK.
I'd add that perhaps we should just take out Force Blast as an Option and have it purchased separately? It would be a lot more expensive, sadly, but it's essentially what we've done with Ninja.
Also, I'm in favour of getting rid of "must exist as element" altogether. We have a Looking Non-Human challenge, why not use that?
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 19, 2009 12:10:52 GMT -5
Hmmm... how about giving a -1 discount if you buy Force Blast with the appropriate element (as a separate action that is). It works for Flight.
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Post by malice on Feb 19, 2009 12:12:02 GMT -5
a. That could be more a problem with Force Blast than a problem with Masteries. So it could be fixed when Force Blast is fixed... b. Agreed. I think the action should be discussed and agreed upon by the GM and player and that be the end of it for that character's Mastery. A different character can manifest mastery of the same element in different ways, so if they want to change which action they get at a discount, that's fine c. I tend to do it as you do it, the other way is too complicated and can get too powerful too quick. Personally I think it's a sucky option because of how it's written. Generally speaking, players that take this are pretty dumb anyway. LOL d. Must exist as element means you're composed of it and have no choice about the matter. Taking "Transform into" with this option is a waste of stones. This one is easier to GM than "transform into" imo because it's a DISadvantage. Players take it to make the mastery cheaper, and should then build their character as a being made of that element. e. Some of the house rules are pretty good. I don't remember mine. I think eliminating this advantage and allowing a generic advantage [that gives you free stones to your defense equal to however many stones you spend into the action] is one way to go. This way people could take that same generic advantage on actions other than masteries. f. I wish I could find the thread about this in General MURPG discussion. It was pretty good. g. Then they can take a different mastery. Some elements are more prevalent in the universe than others. Gravity occurs more often and affects more things than water or fire. It is therefore more prevalent and more powerful because of it's prevalence. Sometimes the "Scope" extra cost really doesn't apply though, even when the book says it should. It really depends on the options they take. I can't imagine making someone pay that cost if they take options that aren't particularly powerful. "Create/Manipulate" and it's unlimited big brother are usually what make a Mastery earn that extra cost.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 19, 2009 12:22:49 GMT -5
This is turning out to be much less of a can-o-worms than I thought. lol
We might still get the problem of someone buying a very expensive Force Blast (CLs at 10+) and then buying a cheap/crappy Mastery (low AN, maybe one option) to save themselves 5 white.
Argh, I have more ideas, but my swim is coming up.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 19, 2009 12:26:49 GMT -5
We might still get the problem of someone buying a very expensive Force Blast (CLs at 10+) and then buying a cheap/crappy Mastery (low AN, maybe one option) to save themselves 5 white. Argh, I have more ideas, but my swim is coming up. ~TWF What if the Force Blast (and movement Action) were limited to twice the AN of the Mastery (ala Mastery of Magic & its magical branches)? Then they'd be forced to buy at least AN 5 in the Mastery if they really planned to make full use of the Force Blast eventually. Have good swimming!
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Post by malice on Feb 19, 2009 12:41:37 GMT -5
We might still get the problem of someone buying a very expensive Force Blast (CLs at 10+) and then buying a cheap/crappy Mastery (low AN, maybe one option) to save themselves 5 white. Argh, I have more ideas, but my swim is coming up. ~TWF What if the Force Blast (and movement Action) were limited to twice the AN of the Mastery (ala Mastery of Magic & its magical branches)? Then they'd be forced to buy at least AN 5 in the Mastery if they really planned to make full use of the Force Blast eventually. Have good swimming! I like that idea because of how it brings Masteries, even Mastery of Magic, in line together. I like when things work like other things.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 19, 2009 12:42:05 GMT -5
I still say we disolve "Masteries" entirely in favor of it's core 4 elements...
Element Creation/Manipulation (Options can exist to extend this), Elemental Attack/Defense, Transformation of Self (which can be handled with Transform Self...) and Elemental Impact on Movement Options (which is covered by the the Flight Option "Fits with Main Power")
SO in the end, we're left with Element Create/Manipulate as one action and Elemental Attack/Defense as another We can break down Elemental Attack down even further to make it Force Blast, Force Field and Energy Defense.... Possibly Energy Absorb/Reflect
So we're left with Create/Manipulate Element as an Action.... SO Let's say +2 CL for Create/Manipulate Element... +1 for Manipulate Element, and +6 for Unlimited Create/Manipulate Element...
Boom, headshot.
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Post by malice on Feb 19, 2009 13:13:38 GMT -5
While I like your pricing for the create/manipulate stuff I'm not sure I like the idea of seperating it into four different actions.
Forgive me for not keeping up with the miles of text, but will there be a 9 action limit in 2.0? If not then the idea makes more sense, but just as masteries get expensive fast, so do seperate powerful actions.
I think we might want to discuss the mechanics of splitting or combining actions. It always seemed like an underdeveloped and potentially extremely valuable aspect of this game.
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Post by Neros on Feb 19, 2009 13:14:45 GMT -5
a) You are right about the "only buy forceblast for mastery" part, however, I've never encountered it.. But Im with Wildknight that we need to find out what you would gain from the various elements.. This way, we can find out if it really is worth +1 or if the cost should be bumped up..
b) Well, you can already buy any movement action for -1 if its related to your mastery, so we don't need any change there.. However, we should explain what happens if you get the discount (its after all a disadvantages)..
c) I find it imorale that someone that uses Transform Into Element get a discount while someone who has Transform Self dosent, since they work more or less the same (however the master can use his power al the time).
d) Agree with TwF.. I would say it does nothing.. If you followed the book (I think), you would gain the discount for the mastery AND challenge stones for looking none human.. So I say, lets drop this one..
e) I don't think this should be include.. Theres no real need for it..
f) As it sais in the book, working objects.. Not sure, but if you had a Ice mastery, you could create a working Radio made of Ice..
g) Im not even sure when this is thrown in.. When a power covers allot or I guess
So fare, I kinda like Dionon' suggestion about disolving Mastery.. Everything you can do i more or less covered with other actions, all you need is the Element Manipulation part... I wouldent mind trying to test this...
Further more, if we keep the discount for other actions, the "Cannot exceed half Mastery" idea is very good..
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Post by malice on Feb 19, 2009 13:38:21 GMT -5
Ok I'm opposed to dropping "Transform into" and "Must exist as" options. Being opposed to it, I have to make my case My case for "Transform into" is that the option is a staple of comic book Masteries, and that backing down from it is awfully cowardly when there's this many people who can devote their ample minds and familiarity with the system to make it workable. My case for "Must exist as" is that people have failed to play it properly. Think about it, if you take this discount then you're completely altering the nature of your character. This disadvantage just doesn't work as an "easy discount". I created a character with Mastery of Light with this disadvantage and immediately gave him the capacity to travel at light speed at will. It was expensive, but that's what the character was. I give a character with Mastery of Fire this option and immediately make his very touch damaging and require him to buy flight in order to move across water or terrain he wouldn't want to set ablaze. "Must exist as" should come with big restrictions, element-specific bonuses, and a consideration of what all that means. It should probably be worth a far more hefty discount than it is, but some advantages of it (If you exist as the element, and have unlimited create manipulate... what does that mean?) keep that from happening.
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Post by prophet224 on Feb 19, 2009 15:24:44 GMT -5
I love the - ahem - 'opening' picture. UNIFIED MASTERIESJust to throw this out, am I right that there is no inherent benefit for purchasing a mastery without any of the options? If that is the case, another possibility would be to increase the cost of the mastery to begin with, but give one free '+1' selection. You wouldn't be able to get a 2x force field (which certainly shouldn't be free or only +1) but you would have some other things to pick from. At first glance, I'd even advocate AN+2 as the cost. I say that because you pay for diversity, and you improve all of the mastery's abilities at the same time. I started to say this before I realized about improving masteries: "Although in fairness, you are paying for the OPTION to have diversity. You actually pay for diversity later by not being as good at one thing as someone who stuck to that one action." To me that's another reason to either break out the abilities into Dionon's groupings or just by the power. DISSOLVED MASTERIESDionon's dissolving of masteries was already starting up above with the section about breaking out force blast. I saw that and thought it was a good idea, and I kind of like breaking them out farther, but I'm not sure. Again, if the 9 limit is gone, then breaking out masteries into component sections can be addressed more closely. Certainly there will be other questions too, like "is a force field under Attack/Defense or creation/manipulation?" LIMITS OF MASTERY AN x2Also, on the idea of limiting the force blast to twice the AN of the mastery, that's not a bad idea, and it could be expanded to other things too (flying comes to mind, but also force field, if used as an extra mastery option, which could also be given a -1 with a mastery). Although, WK, do you really want to force the player to buy something they may not want to improve? J/K! ANOTHER IDEA - SYNTHESIS OF THE ABOVEOk, I'm going to throw this out there, even though it adds a bit of complexity. Rather than breaking up the mastery completely or even making separate actions tie in, why not make the mastery the base for, hmmmm... 'sub-actions', I'll call them for now? So you buy your mastery at a certain level, say 3 (and yes, I'd still advocate a + something to get into the mastery). Then you buy your options at 1/2 cost (or something similar TBD), with things like 'x2 damage' building into that. Here's the kicker that pulls it all together. Sub-actions levels are maxed at the current level of the main action (this pulls in the AN x2 thing, WK) and the main AN stacks with the Sub-AN(SAN). M - Area effects A - Flight (if applicable to element) S - Power Blast T - Transform E - Create R - Manipulate Y - Shield (if applicable to element) I haven't looked at the ninja action in 2.0, but I did catch that it had been changed. This could work out for that action as well, and possibly others. It rolls in the limits, purchasing, spreading out the mastery so someone doesn't take just one thing, and avoids having to worry about any "-1 to CL if you have a mastery" concerns for other actions. Quick example: I buy Mastery: Fire at 3. I then buy flight to 1, Power Blast to 3 (maxed), Create to 1, and Area Effects to 1. I have a bunch of options, I had to pay out extra to get into the mastery, so I'm not unbalancing there. Meanwhile I can use a PB 6, create 4, etc. (Area effects,btw, is just a side thought... perhaps a modifier on the mastery that controls how much you are able to spread out your mastery.) To buy PB up to 4 I'll have to also increase Mastery to 4. But good news, I will still have increased my effective PB and when I bring PB up to 4 it will function at 8!
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 19, 2009 15:40:14 GMT -5
Prophet, that is some very interesting stuff. My first concern, though, is that it's miles away from KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), which is dear to the system.
Some of those things don't need to have their own numbers. "Area" and "Transform" aren't really in need of their own ANs. I'd like to toss out shields entirely (screw Magneto, he can buy Force Field separately). And I'm okay with lumping Create/Manipulate together, though not all characters should have both.
~TWF
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Post by prophet224 on Feb 19, 2009 16:11:04 GMT -5
KISS is an awesome concept to keep fundamental. How much added complexity does this suggestion entail vs. breaking everything out, matching negative cost levels for things, balancing with 'x2 AN' or other choices, etc. Is it really miles away to provide another layer on certain actions? Everything uses the same point scale, but it pulls in several thoughts and concerns, and gives the disparate mastery abilities a common root. Area probably doesn't but doesn't transform? Shape change/change into element, and other possible related actions would be here. And I have to throw this in: I still think shields should be available in appropriate masteries, but modified from how they are handled now. Of course, you could make a case for healing to show up in some masteries too...
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