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Post by GhostKnight on Feb 21, 2009 0:54:39 GMT -5
Honestly, any GM that rules Mastery of Energy includes physical damage needs a boot to the head lol... Also if someone let's that go, ok you're immune to damage... *telepathically dominates the character* And now you're my slave...... Player - "But also mind waver are made of energy so I am ... " GM - "BOOT TO THE HEAD!" Player - "OUCH" You couldn't say it better
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Post by malice on Feb 21, 2009 2:44:27 GMT -5
The multifunction is not a problem of the mastery, is a problem of how many stones you send to each action. If a character has statecraft an ninja they can do a lot of things in a panel but they can't do all of them as good as if they just do one or two. About eliminating masteries I would like to see an example of a master of elements. Personally I see many people trying to abuse the masteries. My question "Mastery of Energy + immunity to element = invulnerability?", the reason I found this forum back in 2003, is one of them. This player comes to me and says that since a hit is made of kinetic energy and he is immune to energy than he is immune to hits. Now, what is a mastery? A package to get a discount in a movement action, a forceblast, a forcefield, a limited immunity and telekinesis? Maybe a free transform self? These things are nice but they can be bought as singular actions. I have no right to ask but please, take it easy! Discussions are better if we don't attack each other. Since it encourages GMs to allow players the widest scope they can with Masteries, I actually have no problem with a lot of the garbage that can come from certain Masteries with certain options. I still would never allow Mastery of Energy with the immunity option to equal Energy AND Physical Invulnerability, because MURPG defines energy and physical attacks as seperate things no matter how many science classes you take. I'm usually not the stingy GM who ALWAYS goes with "Whichever is less powerful" but I find that when it comes to MURPG going with the less-powerful definitions is a consistently decent balancing mechanic. The "extraordinary power or scope" extra cost levels are a great way to balance Masteries that gain particular power with certain advantages. As far as I'm concerned you can buy Mastery of Energy with the "immunity" option and you just got Energy Invulnerability. You didn't cheat the system, because you're paying +8 to cost level before ever picking the option, and while that's a 5 stone advantage at AN one, who cares? Another way is to charge more for advantages that you perceive as being particularly powerful. What I do is watch the cost levels and figure out how many stones they're actually costing. Eventually each +1 to cost level is 5 stones because most masteries break cost level 10 so fast. Therefore "immune to element" with "Mastery of Energy" becomes a +4 to cost level advantage instead of the standard +1. I prefer letting the "scope" cost subsume any extra costs I might want to apply though, because Masteries often appear to be over-powered when they're actually just loaded with ways to spend energy (frequently on offense at the cost of defense, the free Force Field option isn't hard to overcome as written, and it's even easier with some modest house rules). The characters who buy really good ones usually don't have stones to spare to make their character strong in many more areas, so they end up with weaknesses that balance them out appropriately.
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Post by malice on Feb 21, 2009 6:16:39 GMT -5
Terribly sorry for the double post. Here are some of my ideas for pre-designed Force Blasts and Force Fields for Masteries. If we keep a system where you buy a force blast and a force field as an option on Mastery, these are first-draft pre-builts I'm proposing. I post them because they might be useful, not because I’m unaware of a shift away from pre-built options on Masteries. The problem with pre-built is power differences and lack of self-expression for players. The advantage is they have the opportunity to gain unique advantages and options on their powers that would be a pain to customize into another action, and if made correctly pre-built concepts can be balanced well. I have tried to balance these against each other as much as possible, occasionally allowing more powerful masteries a more powerful Force Field or Force Blast. Keep in mind that some options are better for some Masteries than for others. Fire always has a decent Force Blast, while I can't figure out how to give water a decent one. That's because Water gains more power from its manipulation option. (Its Force Field is pretty nasty too) If some of them seem complicated, it could be because they are. Players taking a mastery action will learn what their powers do though, and will therefore be familiar and proficient with them. So what seems complicated becomes simple by limitation. Players and GMs only need to understand the Masteries in that game, not all of them. The two measurements I use most often are the player's action number, which will of course stay the same all the time, and the amount of stones they're spending in the Mastery that panel. Measuring by AN is more powerful, so it doesn't happen as often. If a Master is in the process of Accumulating Energy and has already exceeded their action number then they're considered to have at least their Action Number's worth of stones in the Mastery Action box for the purposes of determining the power of their Force Blasts and Force Fields regardless of how many stones they've put into their Mastery this panel. <-- All one sentence! Yuck!! Force Blasts: I don’t like how some these work in MURPG 1. Often the mastery force blasts in MURPG 1 seem to just be what happens when you throw your element at someone, which should actually be available under create/manipulate. These Force Blasts represent a Master’s best efforts to harvest the most destructive aspects of their element and inflict them on a foe. That being said, some of them are the same as their MURPG counterparts because they matched the more imaginative ones in power already and I couldn’t imagine a better version. [glow=orange,2,300] Fire:[/glow] Normal Damage, but the target catches fire and suffers the damage again over multiple panels. The damage decreases by 1 every panel after the first. The fire persists for an amount of panels equal to the Master’s Mastery of Fire action number, or until it dwindles to zero damage, whichever happens first. The victim can decrease the fire’s damage (And therefore its duration) by putting stones into Agility or an appropriate action to do so (Each stone decreases the fire’s damage by 1, any effect that completely removes the air from the fire, such as dousing it in water, extinguishes it completely). Consecutive successful attacks on the same flaming target do not stack their damage or duration, but replace them. If the later attack damage exceeds the earlier attack damage then it replaces the earlier attack damage. [glow=blue,2,300] Electricity:[/glow] 2x damage or stun Gravity: 3x damage (I like the simplicity of it. I always imagined it as a mega-slam that simulated falling damage or just a full body crush. Normal defenses apply because the Master has to focus their power in a small area to make it so destructive, so a dodge can get you out of the AoE while a tough body can help you withstand its effects) [glow=white,2,300] Water:[/glow] Normal Damage (I need help with this one. As far as my imagination works, a Force Blast just isn’t the most effective way to attack someone when you have control over water.) [glow=green,2,300] Earth:[/glow] Whatever rules apply to projectiles in MURPG 2.0 should apply to this. In MURPG 1 projectiles got 2x damage for free, so that’s what this would’ve had. Air: Stun from suffocation created by a vacuum or a powerful gust that knocks foes away or into something. Damage from suffocation is stun while damage from blast is based on collision. [glow=orange,2,300]Microwaves:[/glow] Armor Penetration or 2x damage against foes without armor bonuses to defense [shadow=black,left,300] Light:[/shadow] Armor Penetration or attack vs. speed to blind for as many panels as stones that overcame speed [glow=gray,2,300] Darkness:[/glow] Target is plunged into darkness equal to Master’s AN for as many panels as stones that penetrated defense Magnetism: Attack vs. Durability to stun only, however if the targets wear a lot of metal or are made partly or completely of metal then they suffer a situational penalty equal to stones that overcame their durability. The penalty applies to all attempts to resist or defend against the Master of Magnetism Sonic: Attack vs. Durability; normal damage or stun [glow=green,2,300]Plants:[/glow] LOL, normal damage or attack vs. agility to entangle I suppose, but really, lol Pama: Wtf. Ranged Heal? Cosmic Energy: 2x Damage, attack vs. abilty Vibrations: 3x damage against objects, ineffective against living creatures Force Fields:For these I tried to imagine what defenses an element would afford someone who was shrouded in intense amounts of it. [glow=orange,2,300] Fire:[/glow] Stones of dodge defense equal to Master’s AN. Creatures and objects within Range 1 suffer damage equal to stones spent on action [glow=blue,2,300] Electricity:[/glow] Stones of defense equal to stones spent on action. Gain Electrification at AN; If you already have Electrification it gains 2x damage. Gravity: Stones of dodge defense equal to AN. Creatures and objects within Range 1 are repulsed away as if by telekinesis equal to stones spent in Mastery [glow=white,2,300] Water:[/glow] Gain Force Field defense equal to AN. Creatures and objects within Range 1 suffer a penalty to physical actions equal to stones spent in Mastery of Water [glow=green,2,300] Earth:[/glow] A Master of Earth may gain Toughness equal to their Mastery AN or increase their existing Toughness by an amount of levels equal to their AN (Max: 10 all options). Instead of gaining Toughness they can choose to create a Fortress (Force field defense equal to 2x stones spent in Mastery, collateral damage, can’t see out of it, and it can’t be created off the ground) Air: As Gravity [glow=orange,2,300]Microwaves:[/glow] Stones of dodge defense equal to stones spent in Mastery. Creatures within Range 1 take damage equal to Master’s AN. [shadow=black,left,300] Light:[/shadow] Dodge bonus to defense equal to stones spent in Mastery x2. [glow=gray,2,300] Darkness:[/glow] Dodge bonus to defense equal to stones spent in Mastery x2. Range 1 around Master is plunged into Darkness equal to the Master’s AN. Magnetism: Force Field defense equal to stones spent in action. Force Field equal to 2x AN against metal attacks (such as bullets) and characters sporting a lot of metal in their bodies within Range 1 of the Master Sonic: Sonic Force Field equal to AN. Stun only attack stones (vs. durability, damage taken from energy reserve only) at Range 1 around the Master equal to stones placed in Mastery. [glow=green,2,300]Plants:[/glow] Either gain Toughness equal to stones spent in action or increase existing Toughness by as many stones as spent in Mastery (Max 10 toughness). They also gain cover defense equal to the amount of stones spent in the action. Pama: Wtf Cosmic Energy: Force Field at 2x Action Number Vibrations: Bah, I’m going to bed.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 21, 2009 10:21:29 GMT -5
Malice, about balancing the costs of Masteries: Even if you balance the costs nicely at character creation, having nearly all the character's powers under one AN gets freaky as LOEs are applied. While most other characters are spreading their increases out over ~3-4 Actions, Mastery characters tend to only increase their Mastery. To make matters worse, even if/when they hit AN 10, they can just keep adding Options. They tend to reach a devastating power level long before other characters. That's one of the reasons why I'd like to see at least some of these things split up.
I'm still uncomfortable with the idea of giving Masters Force Blasts that are inherently better than a regular Force Blast. I've seen a number of Masters in play already who have a Force blast and hardly any Options, and essentially they come out with a superior, discount Force Blast on top of which they can pile all kind of sexy options. I'd really like someone to address that.
As for the suggestions you made about what the force blasts should do, I like most of the concepts! Fire seemed broken to me at first, but in the end it's not that bad. It's maybe somewhere between x2 damage and x3 damage, and the mechanic is simple enough in practice. I don't know where you got the word "pama" from.. are you thinking Plasma? Because Plasma (as its used in comic books) is essentially just fire - superheated/ionized gasses, like what stars are made of.
For Water's force blast, I tend to go with either x2 damage or a Tendril Whip. x2 damage is certainly justified.. ever seen riot police turn a fire hose on a crowd? A strong enough gust of water can push someone down a street. High pressure water is used to cut steel in some metalwork shops. Imagine an actual Master instead of a hose.
The Free Force Fields you presented are neat too, but again I'm concerned about the cost. What do you intend to charge for this? Free stones of defense in general are very powerful and IMHO they should be allowed only in very rare circumstances (I hesitantly agreed to keep free stones of defense on Blasting, and I made it essentially a +4 CL option). Maybe you could clarify what "stones spent in Action" means? Does it include stones shifted to defense (essentially providing x2 defense in some cases), does it include Modifiers, situational modifiers, or stones from Leadership, etc?
~TWF
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Post by Neros on Feb 21, 2009 10:32:50 GMT -5
EDITED: I agree with you Wildknight, a Master more or less only has to upgrade his Mastery to become strong, while others usually have a couple Actions.. Okay, master surely also has 2 actions (mastery and Flight) along with some other ones, but its surely the mastery that will be the main focus... First note, remember that in MURPG 2.0 we have been working on different degrees of Armor Penetration.. I think you should note if its worth more than normal, because Gravitation and Vibration has the same bonus except Vibration also has a limitation.. Force Blast NOTE: If I don' comment it, its because it sounds fine until someone can come with something better. Fire: What if the target is made of something which isent flamable? I would say that he wouldent.. Water: Why not give it the same bonus as in 1.0? Maybe even give it a big knockback effect aswel if the target is within water.. Earth: 2x Damage? I would just say normal damage or "entangle".. Not all Force Blasts with earth is a projectile after all.. Like bursting a spike through the ground to impale your target.. Air: How do you calculate collision? Microwaves: Theres alternate rules for Armor penetrating (something about material types).. What material type would Microwaves be able to penetrate? Light: Again, theres some material rules for Armor Penetration.... And why do you wan't to give Armor Penetration to light??? Darkness: I dont think you need to Fire a blast at someone to shroud them in darkness.. Isent it just a question about removing the surroundign light from the area around the target? Magnetism: You are also able to use metal objects as your weapon (sending cars, thrashcans, bullets flying).. Pama: I've never seen Pama in action, so no idea how it should work.. Vibrations: It has the same bonus as gravity, but also has a limit.. Offcourse, i guess Gravitation will also get the extra increase in cost because its powerful.. Shield/ManipulationFire: Stones of dodge?? What do you mean with that? The rest sound fine.. You do mean within range 1 of the barrier right? Gravity: Again, dodge defense? Water: Not sure if im gona get a beating for this, but water could get 2x Defense when in water.. Earth: I would say 2x defense is to much.. Also, I would run it like this: the barriers you create wont need upkeep and will stay until destroyed (Hard stone don't disappear like energy) Air: No dodge bonus thingy? Light: Dodge again.. Darkness: Again.. However, I would just say that people within the darkness wont be able to hit the him at all (can't see him), unless they have some other means of finding him him.. Sonic: Whats the difference from a blast and a shield (except proberbly the range)? Plants: I would run this the same way as earth.. Pama: Hmm.. If someone touch the barrier they get healed? Vibrations: How about 2x Defense against solid objects or normal defense against normal attacks (you use the surrounding debrise to cover yourself)..
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 21, 2009 10:34:25 GMT -5
I don't remember anyone banning you... .and it was a general announcement that we were doing this.... So, either produce the offending post or shut the hell up. I'm truly perturbed at your assumptions here and am angered that you would ever call my honesty into question. Clearly, you don't watch enough of Dr. House. Otherwise you'd already know that everybody lies. Even me. Besides, I'm offended that you would call my memory into question, so I guess we're even. So, can we please move on and TRY to discuss this like civilized people?I don't hate everything you've said, I just don't believe it's anywhere near as amazingly brilliant as you seem to think it is. I figure there's a much better solution out there, waiting to be found.None of the story concepts people are running here really appeal to me. Most of them are teenage superheroes or Star Wars anyway. If a game concept really grabs my attention, I'll sign up for it as soon as I can, but that's not terribly often. Although I'm thinking I might decide to run something. (I'm generally terrible at making decisions, to the point that I may take most of an hour deciding which movie I want to spend $3 on renting. On the upside, being so careful usually means I'm not disappointed.) In short, there is a difference between little interest and no interest. If I literally had no interest, I wouldn't have joined these boards in the first place.I was kinda hoping for it now, because it would give me a good means by which to judge your idea. If I wait until 2.0 is done, (if that ever happens) I'd just be able to look at the new rules and build my own CAD for him anyway.People may not use it often, but they could if they wanted to. I for one would love to use Create/Manipulate to make a barrier to protect some allies while using a Force Blast to hit someone. Except that a lot of the time, it's better to use a full-power attack and hope it KOs the enemy than it is to risk leaving him able to attack again. Also, since I'd still have another action that panel in the official rules, I could use Flight, Leadership, or whatever. I don't remember what the rules are for multiple actions per panel in 2.0, but I suppose it could still be workable. The way I see it, there are a few main problems with the official rules for Masteries. 1. Vague description. I know the idea was to make it so that players could come up with their own unique ideas for elemental characters, but "Transform into Element" (just to give the best example) has no description at all. I think a section later in the book mentions that it gives you the ability to combine your Mastery with Close Combat, but there's another option for that in one of the other books. Clarifying "Transform into Element" by turning it into Transform Self is an excellent idea, and one I've already (sort of) implemented into one of the characters I made. (But it also makes cleaning up the Transform Self rules even more important. And that's a whole different battlefield.) 2. Mastery Force Blast is better for the cost than stand-alone Force Blast. I believe the X-Men book offers the advice that GMs shouldn't allow this rule-bending combination, and that's about all there is to it. Of course, this gets even worse when they add "Accumulate Energy" to their Mastery for even more damage. In many ways, GMs just need to be willing to say "if you want an advantage for your Force Blast, just buy Force Blast with the damn advantage. If you want to crank out powerful attacks from time to time, Buy Overstrain!" I don't think this really needs a rules fix at all, even if it actually is possible. 3. Masteries are powerful, but generally not game-breakingly so. The main exception here is when a Mastery is bought at a low AN and increased over time. Spending 10 LoE can improve a Force Field, a Force Blast, Energy Absorption/Reflection, or it can improve a Mastery that (at least sort of) does all those things. So Masters of Elements have a very easy choice when they spend their lines. While Dionon's idea to break apart Masteries eliminates this potential for abuse, I feel it goes to the other extreme and makes Masters of Elements Elemental Characters too expensive and too complex. I thought we all liked the KIS rule. My suggested solution for Problem 3 is making Masteries more expensive to upgrade. (That wouldn't be a bad idea to change for Telepathy, either.) Perhaps for every 2 CL of options it has, it costs another line to improve. Maybe every 3 CL. I'm presenting this idea hoping that you can refine it, just every like every idea here should be. All I'm trying to say here is Slow Down, look at the flaws in the official rules, and try to fix them without making new ones. Just because an idea is yours doesn't mean it's awesome, and just because an idea is mine doesn't mean it's bad. Listen to what everyone else here says, and consider the possibility that any one of us may or may not have the best idea. TWF, "Pama" is Mantis' Mastery, from the Avengers Guide.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 21, 2009 10:42:54 GMT -5
Oooooh! Okay, because I've never read anything with Mantis, and that paragraph of my book was smudged during printing or something and is kinda hard to read. Thanks!
My suggestion: Don't play Mantis. ^__^
I've heard a few times that Masteries will be too expensive if they're broken up into component parts. I sorta disagree: they're going to be as expensive as any other character. Everyone else has to buy Force Fields (and spend stones on them, not get free ones), Force Blasts, etc. I don't see why Master of Element characters get to have it all bundled and stacked on top for easy LOE expenditures. Most other characters have a common theme to their powers, just like Elemental masters. I don't understand why they're singled out for benefits that tend to make them imbalanced.
~TWF (who still hasn't decided for sure what he's going to use as a test rule in his test game)
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 21, 2009 11:13:16 GMT -5
Oooooh! Okay, because I've never read anything with Mantis, and that paragraph of my book was smudged during printing or something and is kinda hard to read. Thanks! No problem. It's not very memorable, anyway.Agreed.I'm not familiar with Mantis either, but seeing her Mastery in the book was a definite "wtf?! moment" for me. It's like some outer space religion involving plants or something. I don't know where Marvel writers came up with that idea, and I think I'm glad for that. However, I suspect that now someone will show up and say something like "It's actually a real religion from ancient Siberia. Look it up on the internet sometime."Well, the bundles make it simple, which I thought we all liked, and I've already suggested upping the LoE cost.Yes and no. Looking at comics it seems like most characters with Energy-related powers can fly, even though that only really makes sense for Magneto. Emma Frost has Telepathy and a Diamond form, which don't go together at all. And I've seen a number of original characters who don't have a theme because it allows them to be excessively powerful. (I'm thinking of things like "Psi-Weapon and Physical Immunity" or "Force Blast, Enhanced Senses, and Teleport.) I guess the best answer I can give you is "because all their powers are based on one element, if they encounter someone who is immune to it, all they can do is swear." And really, at character creation time, how much of a cost break do they really get?
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 21, 2009 11:20:59 GMT -5
For starters, I'm against complicated LOE costs. I've said this before in other threads, but there is no way to accurately represent the value of an AN increase; no matter how complicated things get, we don't actually get much closer to actual balance, we just get more complex. As long as Masteries aren't spread out too much, they'll be okay. If they're too concentrated (which I feel they were in 1.0) then there's a problem there too.
I can't really accept the "because all their powers are based on one element" reason because again, a lot of characters will suffer from only having one element on their force blast, for example. That really isn't a unique problem for Masters of Elements. Furthermore, the number of elements available makes it unlikely that you'll find someone completely immune to yours (and if you do, it's probably another master of the same/similar element.. you might be immune to their stuff, too). GMs may choose to present a character with a foe who is specifically immune to their element - but they're just as likely to do that to some other character as well.
~TWF
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 21, 2009 12:43:29 GMT -5
For starters, I'm against complicated LOE costs. I don't especially enjoy the idea myself, but I think it's a way to fix Masteries without breaking them apart into a bunch of actions, and would also make it easy to implement into games that are already running without having to completely re-do CADs. (Although in games that have run long enough, the damage has already been done.)...and yet, lots of us still use the rule of 10 LoE = +1 AN. Maybe that has something to do with having fun and not nit-picking on perfect costs. Too concentrated? You mean as a "buy this action, and it'll be all your powers" type of deal? That's one of the great things about Masteries! Spreading them out into several actions takes away everything that makes them special. To some extent, I'm begining to wonder if there is a good "middle ground" here. The only options seem to be "too spread out", "too compacted" and the old favorite "All of the above."At least if you buy a standalone Force Blast, you can buy the option to add another element... not that anyone ever seems to.Or someone who absorbs it. Isn't Bishop fun?!...And everyone learns a valuable lesson about teamwork! I've seen those storylines! I guess the only good example I can think of is Pyro, who can't use his powers if his lighter gets taken away. That expensive Mastery just becomes worthless. It could also apply for characters who take "Power weaker away from source." For example, if you're playing a Master of Earth on a boat in the middle of the ocean. But that really only applies to characters who choose those sorts of limitations. Maybe an increase to the base cost of Masteries would help that out. I don't know.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 21, 2009 13:06:26 GMT -5
It's hard to reply to your replies, as unless I include nested quotes (which are hard to read), anything I quote from you seems to come out of context. So I'm going to skip the quotes and just talk generally. ^__^
I'm not going to talk more about different costs of LOEs. You said it yourself that it's better to just have fun than to nitpick about costs - so let's not nitpick. 10+AN LOEs doesn't solve anything, it just moves the imbalance around ("+AN" doesn't account for options, for example). On this issue we're just going to have to disagree.
A lot of the things you're saying seem to be in agreement that Masters aren't any different than other characters: any character who's primary attack is a force blast or some other energy form is vulnerable to characters immune to that element or who have Energy A/R or high Energy Defense, etc. Masters aren't special in that way. Likewise, Masteries include an "extra element" option, just like Force Blasts. So they aren't special in that way either. Again, a mastery over an energy source is just one power theme among so many others.
Your argument that Mastery powers should be bundled together amounts to "that's one of the great things about Masteries!" which is circular logic. They're like that because it's great because they're like that because its great, etc. There is no substance to anything you're saying (in my opinion).
Telepathy actually suffers from a similar problem. There are tons of options, all of which are very useful, which end up using the same AN. However, because Telepathy uses its own mechanic, it's a little trickier to break it down into component parts. Once again, I'm not suggesting that breaking Masteries down is the only way to go, but I think its worth discussing and worth testing.
~TWF
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 21, 2009 13:35:24 GMT -5
First off, I never said anything about making costs 10+AN. I specifically said 10 + half the CL of Options (or something like that. You can even go back and check if you care enough.) My idea is not to make them increase slower as time progresses, but to make them slow because they do so much.
The "Additional Element" Advantage DOES NOT apply to Masteries, at least according to the core book. It's right there on page 54. (And then Crystal's Mastery of the Four Elements pretty much tossed that out the window, which means it should be fixed.)
I do not employ circular logic! The benefit of package Masteries is the obvious simplicity! If people here have decided that simplicity is no longer a goal, I didn't get the memo. And if you didn't notice the substance in my post, I'm sorry, but that's not my fault.
I mentioned using the same fix for Telepathy. I'd also like to point out that Fear is a power that could go wonderfully with Telepathy, but which is completely separate in the official rules (for whatever reason). Clearly there is much work to be done.
EDIT: Fixed some typos.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 21, 2009 13:54:31 GMT -5
First off, I never said anything about making costs 10+AN. I specifically said 10 + half the CL of Options (or something like that. You can even go back and check if you care enough.) My idea is not to make them increase slower as time progresses, but to make them slow because they do so much. You're 100% right, I'm sorry. I got confused with other suggestions and I should have gone back and looked at your sentence more closely. Very sorry. Yeah, I pretty much assumed that Crystal's mastery superseded that rule. Most people seem to ignore it. Furthermore, some "elements" are quite composite to begin with (such as Weather). ~TWF
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 21, 2009 14:20:58 GMT -5
Hey, thanks for apologizing. That takes more guts than most people have.
For the "Each additional Element" advantage, or in some ways "broad-scope" Masteries, it's just a mess. It's another example of that vague description I mentioned. Crystal's Mastery is... Part of me wants to say it's almost fair as a package of Elements, you can't decide "Air is a lame element. I'll swap it out for electricity instead." But the truth is, it's just a place where I'd say the game-makers just screwed up... badly.
Storm's Mastery of Weather sort of gets Water, Air, Cold/Ice, and Electricity. It's not any of them, but it's parts of all of them. I'd say it should maybe cost a level or two more than a basic Mastery like Mastery of Water, but...
Oh. Also, perhaps instead of a free advantage for Force Blasts, they should get a -1 cost on a relevant advantage. That way someone who wants an Ice Blast for their character can't get a really expensive advantage like "Attack vs. Durability to Freeze" while someone else pays the same amount for a Fire Blast blast with 2x damage.
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Post by malice on Feb 21, 2009 16:09:04 GMT -5
Neros, Dodge Defense is defense you gain by concealment, moving out of the way of attacks, or moving attacks away from you. In game terms, it's defense that is ignored by Area attacks.
I don't know what terms you guys are using in MURPG 2.0, but mine are:
Dodge --> Negated by Area Attacks Armor --> Negated by Armor penetration or Phase Attack Force Field --> Never negated unless the power is, although some things may ignore it partially (I run Phase Attacks as only able to get through Force Fields if the Attacker has more stones in their Phase Shift action than the Defender does in their Force Field action.)
Water's Force Blast does normal damage in MURPG 1. TWF, you make some good points about water's power, but water's isn't actually any more powerful than solids it's just more flexible. It doesn't cut steel because it's water, it cuts steel because as a liquid it can be pressurized and used easier than solids can.
Also Neros, I know of the material class AP rules that are suggested for MURPG 2.0 and I think they're pretty good. However I wasn't sure how much sense it made for them to apply to energy types. It seems like "Material classifications" should be restricted to materials, that is, physical attacks.
However we could just rule that energy types play by the same rules for simplicity and game balance's sake. In this case I would say that Mastery Force Blasts with the AP advantage should either gain the lowest level of AP for free and/or be able to buy all levels of AP at a discount.
The trouble in MURPG 1 with applying advantages to Masteries that aren't in the Mastery list is that they apply to all of the aspects of the Mastery according to the rules of how advantages work. I think if advantages work just as they did in MURPG 1 (No reason they shouldn't imo) then seperating Masteries into seperate actions works that much better. So if you had your "Mastery Attack/Defense" action and applied a Material rating to it (Let's say three) then that would make your Force Blast a Class 3 Material and your Armor Defense gained by the Master (In the case of Earth or Plants) a Class 3 Material as well.
The Master gets a discount, but not a game-breaking one.
I think Dionon's suggestion to seperate the Masteries into smaller sub-actions is looking better. It makes Masteries more powerful at character creation but harder to improve. I disagree with Dionon's suggestion to just eliminate the concept of Masteries entirely. Keeping them in Mastery Format, even if it gets as many as 4 actions and discounts a dozen modifiers, keeps a paper trail telling the GM where those discounts are.
As suggested, I'm gonna go make that thread about combining and splitting actions, because to adequately keep developing Masteries that NEEDS to be discussed.
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