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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 19, 2009 21:40:13 GMT -5
Basic rules of thumb:
1. You may not add more free stones to an action than the stones you put into the action from your energy reserve.
Note: No matter what sources of free stones your have, modifiers, weapons, items, etc. You can't go over the 1 to 1 ratio. This effectively limits the unbalancing aspects of large modifiers.
2. Ability + Action must = or exceed difficulty to succeed.
Note: You can be either a skillful thief or a very naturally talented thief. But the combination of both must be high enough to defeat the difficulty for success. Negative sitmods may apply of course. Actions that have resistance higher than the difficulty may be continued over multiple panels until the resistance is met. IE Difficulty Level 5 Bomb, Resistance 30.
3. When lifting objects, go by the D&R chart. Lifting objects that are half the rating of your STR or less take only 1 stone of effort. Otherwise pay full price.
4. When throwing objects that are half the rating of your STR or less, the first 30 feet are free, and each additional 30 feet costs 1 stone. Special distance designed projectiles such as baseballs or golf balls come with a base 'free distance' modifier. Otherwise treat the distance increment as 10 feet per stone with the first 10 feet being free.
Note: It is assumed that you must first have paid the stones to LIFT the object before being able to throw it.
5. There are no unresistable attacks unless the target is willing. Every attack will be opposed by some defense whether active or passive unless it is intended to be accepted.
IE Healing effects can be accepted and need not be resisted. Even if a character is caught by surprise, they will have some kind of passive defense to resist, no matter how insignificant. Negative sitmods may apply but they should never reduce the resistance to zero.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 19, 2009 21:42:45 GMT -5
Wow.. I can't begin to say how strongly I disagree with number 1. Thats a terrible, terrible idea.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 19, 2009 21:49:01 GMT -5
I'm okay with #1 applying to Modifiers, but other free stones shouldn't be limited. Leadership, situational bonuses, etc should apply normally.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 19, 2009 21:51:09 GMT -5
The trouble is that all of those things ARE Modifiers.
Personally I think that you're much better off to say "stones from one specific Modifier <i.e. Targeting> cannot exceed stones from the energy pool."
If people happen to have multiple applicable Modifiers (i.e. Specialties, SitMods, and so on... or even multiple Modifiers that just happen to overlap in a given situation), they should be able to take advantage of them.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 19, 2009 22:01:41 GMT -5
I'm personally against most of them... Here's why. 1) It's just a bad idea personally... Perhaps a limitation like Targeting has now (Cannot more than Double the AN of the Action in question) might be better... IE if you have 7 Close Combat you can have up to a 7 modifier without it being effected.... But, if you have a 7 modifier, and a 3 close combat, you can't get more than 3 stones... It's much more fair.
2) I'm not liking this because of something someone pointed out to me today... Action + Ability = Difficulty means that anyone with ANY combination that equals 10... can automatically do ANYTHING. NO.. If your Action Number doesn't beat the Difficulty.... you're SOL.
3) Personally I liked it better when under 1/2 your Strength was FREE... not 1 stone. I'd like to stay there.
4) I also liked it when the difference between the Weight of the Object, and your Strength modifier was the free range (IE, if you pick up something weight 4, and you have a strength 8, you get 40 feet free... but if it's instead a weight 1, you get 70...) Much better mechanic.
5) This is a given, and the only thing I agree with.... People can drop their defenses (Except toughness) Willingly.
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Post by Neros on Feb 20, 2009 7:34:24 GMT -5
I more or less disagree with most of the thumb rules suggested.. 1) I kinda like this one.. It works well for targeting and other weapon-like modifiers.. But I agree with Wildknight.. That rule would mean you couldent get stones from Specialities or Leadership in the same panel, if you already have a modifier for the Action you are using..
2) I so agree with Dionon here.. I am in no way, gona let Ted with Intelligence 6 and Technology 1 play around with Kree technology..
3) I like the rules which where created awhile back, and I wouldent mind keeping them for 2.0.. Which might be what Dionon is refering to..
4) I like the rules which where created awhile back, and I wouldent mind keeping them for 2.0.. Which might be what Dionon is refering to..
5) I seem to remember that Reflexive Dodge wouldent applie if you are knocked out, tied up, ect..
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 20, 2009 7:41:34 GMT -5
Sorry, let me clarify... I MAY disagree with all of them. I never got past 1, because, well, it horrified me.
I know we're trying to limit stone counts, but geeze. Thats just ridiculous.
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 20, 2009 9:26:06 GMT -5
Rule 1 (or something similar) sounds pretty good to me. It's complete bullshit that some characters people have made spend a stone of energy for an 11-stone attack. Perhaps "free stones cannot exceed the spent energy" is a bit harsh, but it could work very well. At any rate, I'd suggest allowing stones from specialties and situational modifiers to exceed that limit, but not weapons or regular modifiers.
Rule 2 shows up several time throughout the official books, and while many people around here hate it, I figure that at least to some extent, that's the way it should be. The alternative is to make ability bonuses almost worthless, which would also make them overpriced to add to any actions that don't normally include them.
Rules 3&4 I won't give much thought to, since I don't care for playing the strong characters much.
I've got mixed feelings about rule 5. On one hand, the system isn't supposed to give out free defense to goons who are too stupid to spend into it. On the other hand, a surprize attack can kill just about any human, which doesn't seem right, either. To some extent, a role-playing system should be designed to promote exciting combat scenes, not stealth kills. On another hand, it's not that common that players have the element of surprize...
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Post by Dionon on Feb 20, 2009 10:01:06 GMT -5
Rule 2, even if it's IN the book... is a broken pile of dung. Your agreement to rule one, makes me amazed that you agree with Rule 2... So... My Intelligence of 8 and my Technology of 1, entitles me to build Time Machines.... but my Close Combat of 1 and my Claws of 8 doesn't entitle me to make a 9 stone attack? Give me a break.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 20, 2009 10:07:46 GMT -5
Concerning Rule 2: We've discussed this multiple times in other threads. A character with Strength 1 and Close Combat 5 should not be able to punch their fist through a steel wall (difficulty 6). I don't care how much experience you have or how much you practice, Strength alone is the limiting factor in this case. End of story.
There will be times when Abilities, Modifiers, and Actions will and won't apply. It's up to the GM to decide, in the end. The best we can do is outline some common rules, such as lifting, throwing, breaking, and various knowledge/skill-based actions.
~TWF
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 20, 2009 10:19:05 GMT -5
Rule 2, even if it's IN the book... is a broken pile of dung. Your agreement to rule one, makes me amazed that you agree with Rule 2... So... My Intelligence of 8 and my Technology of 1, entitles me to build Time Machines.... but my Close Combat of 1 and my Claws of 8 doesn't entitle me to make a 9 stone attack? Give me a break. There are two things wrong with that. For starters, you'd need Inventing to build a time machine. And more importantly, at least the genius is spending a lot of energy, unlike the claw-junkie. And ability bonuses aren't worthwhile otherwise.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 20, 2009 10:28:40 GMT -5
*sigh* you missed my point, which seems to be the going for me lately.
Firstly.... to Invent something you need the TECH LEVEL of the item... it's one of the rules of the old inventing... I can have an Inventing 1, Technology 1 and an Intelligence of 8, and BAM! I can build a freakin Time Machine.. No, no way!
Secondly, they're NOT burning through alot of energy... They're spending their energy... once per day. Whoo... so much effort!
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 20, 2009 10:28:42 GMT -5
And more importantly, at least the genius is spending a lot of energy, unlike the claw-junkie. And ability bonuses aren't worthwhile otherwise. Ability bonuses are usually free, so their "worth" isn't much to begin with. For Actions such as Technology and Thieving that mostly involve meeting a Difficulty and overcoming a Resistance (as opposed to, say, Close Combat which has its own mechanic), Ability bonuses primarily help you overcome resistance. For example, imagine a burglar with Agility 6 and Thieving 4 is trying to crack a safe. The GM decides that the Difficulty of cracking this safe is 3, and that only someone with experience in Thieving should know how - thus, only the character's Thieving AN is compared to Difficulty. He has a higher AN than the difficulty, so he can attempt the action. The Resistance, however, is set at, say, 20 stones. While the burglar's experience (represented by Thieving AN) is certainly helpful, his superhuman Agility comes in very handy when it comes to completing the task quickly and efficiently. Thus, the burglar can put up to 10 stones into the Action at a time, completing the task in only two panels, provided he has that much energy. Makes sense, no? If you allow Abilities to do all the work, actual experience and knowledge become meaningless compared to "raw talent". There are just some things you can't accomplish with talent alone. It's logical, and best of all, it's balanced. ~TWF
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 20, 2009 11:07:44 GMT -5
Ability bonuses are usually free, so their "worth" isn't much to begin with. Where did that rule come from?! You pay for ability bonuses, at least in the real rules. The one exception I can think of is the Gambling action, which allows a free agility bonus when cheating.Whoop-de-friggin' do! Other than Thieving, most actions don't have much Resistance anyway.Actually, no. It doesn't make sense. Agility should make you a great thief, not just a fast one. Just like Intelligence should make you skilled with technology. (Actually, Intelligence can make a great thief, too. Not the same type of thief, but still a thief.)Except it's not logical at all, especially considering how well I've done with my raw talent. How about this example. Agility-Junkie has an Agility of 9, but has never swung from a trapeze before. Since his Acrobatics action number of 2 doesn't meet the difficulty of 3, he plummets and gets badly injured... or worse... Because you figure his "raw talent" is worthless. (Sorry, almost worthless.) That's just bull. Or this example? A genius with an Intelligence of 7 bought a bonus for his Vehicle Operation action at AN 2. You're telling me that one of the smartest people on the planet, who spent a bunch on an ability bonus, couldn't figure out how to operate a tank if his life depended on it, just because his AN is a point too low, never mind the that he can put in three times that many stones thanks to his ability bonus. Explain to me how you think that makes sense! Sure, to some extent it's cheeze that a single high ability score can combine with several crappy ANs, so maybe that should be toned down. Perhaps limit the stones to the AN or Ability score, whichever is lower, or something. But really, Difficulty is far more important than Resistance, since anyone can beat resistance if they have enough time.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 20, 2009 11:21:59 GMT -5
First of all.... Agility Junkie wouldn't get hurt... unless that Trapeze is more than 110 feet off the ground... which most aren't... But, because the Difficulty is 3, he can attempt to use his Agility instead of his Acrobatics which while giving him a -2 Penalty, he can cover with ease... I'd rule that if he's never done it before, and doesn't have the Acrobatics "training" to do so... NO he can't unless he's got Agility to do the action without the skill...
As for the guy with an Intelligence of 7.... Yes, he can figure out how to drive a tank, but can he put it into practice? Probably not... And what I mean by practice is not "Pushing the forward button, falling over and accidently hitting the fire button..." I mean using it to Military efficiency. NO He can't do that because he's not trained.
By saying that AN + Ability Bonus can = Difficulty, you're completely minimizing the importance of Action Numbers... Why should I EVER have anything over a 1, when I can have the requisite Ability at 9 and say "Screw you, I can do ANYTHING"
It doesn't work like that... or at least it SHOULDN'T, and if I have my way, it won't in 2.0
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