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Post by Neros on Feb 25, 2009 9:52:54 GMT -5
EDITED: By the way, I can't take the credit for this idea.. I belive it was PirateSpice which created it a good while back.. INVULNERABILITYCost = See Below DESCRIPTIONSometimes a hero is simply invulnerable to a certain type of attack (or element). This is expensive, though, and as a result a hero will generally be left with an Achilles’ heel. Do not allow a player to have too many Invulnerabilities (they are ruinously expensive, in any case). Players and NPCs should always have some sort of Achilles’ heel. Costs for Invulnerabilities are based on three factors of the element in question: its rarity, how harmful it is, and its scope (how much the Invulnerability encompasses). To determine the cost of the Invulnerability, simply add together the listed cost of each factor (all costs are in white stones). How often does it come up? +1 Almost never (e.g. disease, bad luck) +2 Rarely (e.g. demons, power manipulation) +4 Not very often (magic, cold, poison) +6 Common (fire/heat, earth-based attacks, gas) +8 Very Common (energy, mental attacks, stunning) +10 Everyday Occurrence (kinetic/physical damage) |
How harmful is it? +1 Inconvenient (non-lethal drugs) +2 Uncomfortable (bad luck) +4 Painful (poison, power manipulation, stunning) +6 Dangerous (fire/heat, kinetic/physical, mental attacks) +8 Deadly (demons, energy, magic) +10 Absolute (disintigration, Ultimate Nullifier) |
How broad is the scope? +1 Almost no effect (non-lethal drugs) +2 Very specific (disease, stunning) +4 Few applications (fire/heat, cold, power manipulation) +6 Many applications (energy, bad luck, demons) +8 Wide range (mental attacks, kinetic/physical damage) +10 Almost limitless (magic, the Power Cosmic) |
COMMENTSWhile the power is awesome, the expense is prohibitive. So even if you buy one of the more expensive invulnerabilities, you probably can’t afford two. Rule for Modifier Box:• Invulnerable to “Name Invulnerability” EXAMPLELet's say you want to be Invulnerable to Magic. Easy enough. Step 1: How often does it come up? Well, magic is rare, but not extremely rare in the Marvel Universe. So that qualified as "not very often", which adds 4 stones to our cost. Step 2: How harmful is it? Magic can call upon the most primal forces of the universe, and the most powerful forms are limited only by rote and ritual. Magic is deadly...so that's another 8 stones, for a total of 12. Step 3: How broad is the scope? Well, what can't magic do? Its fairly well limitless, and comes in a wide variety of forms. That's another 10 stones. Thus, to be able to brush off Doctor Strange's best shot with a chuckle, you pay a bargain price of 22 stones.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 25, 2009 9:53:38 GMT -5
Yeah, I like this system.... It's very well done as far as I'm concerned, and gets my vote.
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Post by malice on Feb 25, 2009 15:02:37 GMT -5
So I'm gonna use this system a few times and judge each invulnerability seperately:
with this system...
Physical Invulnerability costs 24 stones
-Fair price. I've spoken to lots of people who feel this is the most broadly applicable invulnerability. I don't think I'd get it with this price, but I only ever made 1 character with an Invulnerability before anyway because the costs ARE prohibitively expensive.
Energy Invulnerability costs 22 stones
-Again, fair price
Mental Invulnerability costs 22 stones
-Fair price but an unnecessary increase
Magic Invulnerability costs 22 stones
-Fair price in a Magic-heavy campaign
Immunity to Fire costs 16 stones
-Overpriced by a LOT
Immunity to Heat costs 16 stones
-Overpriced by a LOT, but not as badly as immunity to Fire
Immunity to Bad Luck costs 9 stones
-Overpriced based on the options available to players. Potentially fairly priced if your GM includes a greater amount of luck-based things in the game.
Immunity to Demons costs 16 stones
-Feels too expensive. Although I always thought this was an amusing invulnerability. "You said you were a demon?" "Yes, I'm Dra-knar-Zhul of the Nine Hells of-" "I'm immune to everything you can do" "...well... pooey"
Immunity to Gas starts at 6 stones
-Overpriced when you can just get "doesn't breath" for 1 stone and then make your skin out of some weird material that doesn't interact with anything.
Immunity to the Power Cosmic, Phoenix Force, or Lifeguard's annoying action (which would be hilarious to nullify when trying to kill her allies) would all cost 10 stones each
-Fair Price if you're feeling like screwing someone over
It would appear that PirateSpice went through some troubles to get the old prices close the same but thought they were very slightly overpowered. Unfortunately players get screwed pretty hard when they're looking for something less broad than one of the big 4.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 15:05:43 GMT -5
Ugh!
No no no no no.
Physical Invulnerability is worth WELL more than 24 stones. I'm not sure why people don't ever do the very simple math and realize that invulnerability to 90% of all attacks you'll ever face is worth half (or slightly more than half) of your initial stone allotment.
It gets worse as you scale upward, of course (as all Modifiers do in Marvel), and by the time you're at 80 stones, you're an absolute FOOL not to buy Physical Invulnerability.
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Post by malice on Feb 25, 2009 15:29:54 GMT -5
Ugh! No no no no no. Physical Invulnerability is worth WELL more than 24 stones. I'm not sure why people don't ever do the very simple math and realize that invulnerability to 90% of all attacks you'll ever face is worth half (or slightly more than half) of your initial stone allotment. It gets worse as you scale upward, of course (as all Modifiers do in Marvel), and by the time you're at 80 stones, you're an absolute FOOL not to buy Physical Invulnerability. 90% in whose games? I assume yours? The ONE time I bought Physical Invulnerability, it wasn't an 80 stone game, and the GM was very good about both making my expensive-ass modifier feel well worth the price AND throwing more than physical attacks at me to keep my defenses up. I got to have fun with the invulnerability and it saved my ass plenty, but it wasn't a catch-all defense. Some games benefit less from Physical Invulnerability, some benefit more. A lot of the games on these boards benefit from it because they're street-level or 40+10 and physical attacks are affordable and therefore common. The only reason I said it was more applicable is because it applies to Firearms and most Close-Fighters where other Invulnerabilities tend to apply only to one oft-used character type (They also catch a lot of things you don't expect). Most importantly: The ability to SURVIVE a lot of attacks does not translate directly to being overpowered in a lot of situations. Invulnerabilities are crazy-expensive and usually pretty easy to circumnavigate.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 16:03:27 GMT -5
Its the "crazy expensive" part I'm disagreeing with. 20 stones (or even 24) is WELL worth it to be immune to everything The Hulk, Captain America, Spider-Man, and Giant Man combined could throw at you.
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Post by malice on Feb 25, 2009 16:20:21 GMT -5
It IS well worth it, but it's not so crazy good you'd be stupid to do without it, and it IS crazy-expensive when you consider how many stones you start with.
I think "bang you can afford" should supercede "bang for your buck" concerns. I don't give a damn that Phoenix Force, Invulnerabilities, and other modifiers are "amazing deals" because the enormous drain they are on character creation stones balances the deal out. I don't have problems restraining players' power levels so I'm not going to spend a lot of time trying to spite power gamers with pricing.
If you're playing a game where players start with 80 stones before challenges, then you bet Invulnerabilities are something they should be looking seriously at. "Oh no, the guy who started with 80 stones can afford a good modifier!" Big deal. They're SUPPOSED to be powerful, and it's just plain weird to have a problem with that.
Actions and modifiers in MURPG are priced on who would have them before they're priced according to their power. The actions and modifiers that are problematic are the ones that are priced out-of-sync with others, not the ones that are powerful but affordable to the right people.
The Hulk is NOT a 40-stone character, so I really don't care what he can or can't do. If a 40 stone character wants to invest half of their being into being immune to Hulk's basic attacks, by all means let them. If the Hulk really wanted to kill them he still has the option of throwing them out of orbit.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 17:15:09 GMT -5
Hulk can't throw someone out of orbit (in MURPG), because all attacks still have to penetrate defenses, and its still always 1 for 1.
If you're the type of GM who allows nonsense insta-kills via "I chuck the bad guy into the stratosphere", I'm glad I don't play in your games.
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Post by malice on Feb 25, 2009 17:36:55 GMT -5
Way to get petty fast...
Maybe I should emphasize the "I don't care about Hulk" part. I really don't, although it appears I give his strength more credit than you do.
As for 1 for 1 defenses, Toughness and armor wouldn't help a whole lot to keep someone from grabbing you, which leaves your reflexive dodge and stones allocated (Your Force Field better be huge if you want it to keep them from grabbing it like a fishbowl). Then if they have enough strength, are evil enough, and I feel like being a jerk, yeah they can throw you out of orbit.
I'll make a couple notes though:
1. Evil behavior on the part of the PCs gets them into trouble 2. I never "feel like being a jerk" when in the GM seat
NONE of that had anything to do with my original point though, which was that Invulnerabilities are really nice but can be gotten around pretty easily.
EDIT: You deleted your second post. If you don't want to read on that's fine, because the rest of this is addressing that post.
1 for 1 DOES suck, it IS why un-enhanced (No modifiers, no damage multipliers, no AP or Area, etc.) CC and Force Blast suck, and you didn't do anything to argue against it.
In your 1st point you mentioned that defenses are cheap, which means they're getting better than 1 for 1
In your 2nd point you mentioned modifiers, which are also a way of getting better than 1 for 1. Just because it's not as obviously a multiplication problem doesn't mean it's 1 for 1. Wolverine and Sabretooth are always getting more than they're paying into their Close Combat because of their claws.
The last part of your second post confused me, it felt like you were getting a little dizzy from jumping between the Masteries thread and this one so much. I am too. If I'm wrong, then it still confused me.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 17:43:36 GMT -5
1) I didn't delete my last post. I put it where it was meant to be in the first place. Apparently I was getting dizzy from jumping back and forth...
2) I wasn't getting petty. Some GMs and some players have vastly differeing play styles. I am one who does not like players OR GMs having cheesy "insta-kill" moves like throwing someone into orbit or teleporting away with their head. IMO, ALL attacks in MURPG should be resolved as Attack vs. Defense = damage.
3) Again, this is clearly a difference in style. I DO see a serious problem with a player being able to ignore every attack from someone like the Hulk by buying a Modifier that costs less than one-sixth of the cost of Hulk's entire CAD...
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Post by Dionon on Feb 25, 2009 17:54:19 GMT -5
Uh guys? This system is much more fair, and consistant than the old one. The old one was arbitrary at best...
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 18:06:41 GMT -5
Uh... THIS one is arbitrary but with the appearance of not being arbitrary.
How deadly an attack type is depends ENTIRELY on the attack in MURPG, therefore including it as part of a formula is ridiculous.
A physical attack from J. Jonah Jameson isn't remotely dangerous or lethal, while a physical attack from The Hulk should be able to kill a normal human so badly that his next of kin ends up in traction...
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Post by Dionon on Feb 25, 2009 18:21:13 GMT -5
It's more fair then static pricing for one. And for another, I think this system is based more on "Average" deadliness, and not on extremes.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 19:53:14 GMT -5
"More fair" is relative. personally I think using the word "fair" is generally a disservice to whatever you're trying to prove, because "fair" is actually best defined as "whatever is most advantageous to my position" the way people use it.
That said, I think this system is a "step up" but it doesn't address certain issues correctly. Basing pricing on "how deadly" a certain thing is, is counter-productive to the realities of the RPG.
For instance, in the real world, even the smallest dose of some poisons would render me dead very very quickly. However, a character with a "Mastery of Poison" who could, in theory, render those very poisons, would be doing nothing but making an attack like any other attack (with whatever options he'd paid for), thereby rendering poison EXACTLY as deadly, for instance, a punch with those exact same options.
The same applies to nuclear radiation, vacuum, and anything else thats "deadly" within the game.
Of course there is some variation on all this because not all attacks originate with a character. Falling in lava is exactly as deadly as the GM makes it (as opposed to getting hit with Joe Magma's "Lava Blast" Force Blast), but in general, since all attacks are resolved the same way, and since nothing within the system is automatically more lethal than anything else, then nothing is "more deadly."
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Post by malice on Feb 25, 2009 21:02:59 GMT -5
I see where you're coming from WildKnight, so I'd like an answer to my next question.
Would you like to see Invulnerabilities entirely absent from 2.0? It sounds to me like you don't approve of their existence at all, and would like to see them go.
If I'm wrong, please say so, and maybe present your thoughts on how to do it better?
If I'm right, I would like to know how you think we can simulate effects like Physical Intangibility that is in effect an Invulnerability and an entertaining option for a lot of characters. I made a character (maybe two) with Physical Intangibility (They had taken Masteries with the "exist only as" option) who were incorporeal and therefore physically invulnerable. I never got to use them but I thought they looked like fun. How do you feel about that?
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