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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 21:33:56 GMT -5
The short answer to your question is, no, I wouldn't like to see Invulnerabilities removed entirely. I think they have a place within the game, even though I personally as a GM will never allow Physical Invulnerability for a PC barring any really unusual circumstances I haven't yet thought of.
However, I do think that they should be priced commensurate with what they actually provide.
Physical Invulnerability isn't impossible to get around by any means... but it does "defend" against far more than any other Invulnerability, and should be priced so as to reflect that fact, and to put it out of bounds for anybody who doesn't want to make that their one single, real, defining power within the game.
In other words... roughly 30 stones given that 40 stones is a "normal" game.
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In response to your second question, you and I have a very different idea on what happens when you have "must exist as element."
Human Torch can transform into fire. It doesn't make him immune (or even all that resistant) to normal harm.
Purely from a balance perspective... would I allow a player to get Physical Invulnerability for free by taking a DISADVANTAGE? Of course not.
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Post by malice on Feb 25, 2009 21:48:47 GMT -5
I never said it was free and you failed to answer my question.
To settle your "different GMing" concerns, they paid 20 stones for their intangibility, I didn't even think to give them a discount (although given the power of the modifier 20 stones could be called the discounted version). It was a flat cost modifier just like the invulnerabilities but it came with a disadvantage that they had to spend extra effort to affect material things even if it was a minor task.
My thoughts on "exist only as" are in the Masteries thread. It's not just a disadvantage, it's a choice that should change your entire character plan and affect what you spend your character creation stones on. Nothing powerful is free. Masteries can get you discounts, but shouldn't fetch you much for free.
However, a buddy of mine played a Darkforce ghost in another game. He was incorporeal at all times and really didn't have a choice in the matter. He could affect the material world, but it always cost him extra stones. So, how would you price that?
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 21:58:41 GMT -5
I'm not exactly sure what question I didn't answer.
If you're referring to Intangibility... I have no problem with characters who can become intangible; there are plenty of ways to deal with them. However, characters who are completely intangible tend to be problematic, and I probably wouldn't allow it unless it was a player who had proven to me in the past that they were doing it because it was fun concept that they really wanted to play, not just because it was a cheesy way to be invulnerable to all sorts of badness (not to mention being able to pass through walls and all that).
At any rate, 20 stones is far too cheap for all that.
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Post by malice on Feb 25, 2009 22:02:19 GMT -5
I suppose "That's far too cheap" is as good an answer as I'll ever get from you (And seems to be your preferred default in this thread).
Thank you for answering my question.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 26, 2009 0:18:56 GMT -5
You can't remove Invulnerabilities... They exist in Marvel. Johnny Storm is immune to Fire, The Destroyer Armor is Immune to Physical and Energy attacks, Etc...
I can see WK's point though... He's not saying remove Invulnerability, he's saying that the system presented is flawed because in Marvel, everything is potentially as dangerous as anything else.
I have an idea. What if we remove the "How deadly is it?" question and replace it with something else.
I've got it... GM Fait.... The final question should be "How much is this Immunity worth to your GM?"
+1 Psst... Whatever +3 Interesting +5 Uh, Not bad +7 That's powerful +9 Near Broken! +10 Oh COME on!
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 26, 2009 2:20:41 GMT -5
While my immediate reaction to that suggestion was laughter, I think it could work. While it's not a "hard and fast" rule, it allows the GM to adjust prices for immunities as she sees fit, within a certain limitations.
Immunity to Fear?... Interesting. Immunity to Fire? Not bad. Immunity to all Forms of Energy? It'll cost ya!
Looking over the guidelines at the beginning over this thread, I have to agree that they make Immunity to Fire far too expensive. Sure, it's pretty common, and it's dangerous, but it's not all that much cheaper than the much better Immunity to Energy. It's like shopping for a house and discovering "For 30% more cost, you could get a mansion with ten times as much floor space." One is clearly a much better deal.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 26, 2009 6:58:48 GMT -5
The GM Fiat deal might not be a bad place to start, but what about the huge cost this system places on lesser immunities.
I don't care HOW common water is... nobody in their right mind is going to pay that kind of price for Immunity to Water.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 26, 2009 9:50:16 GMT -5
What are you pricing Water at? I've got 11 stones (GM Fait = Psst.. Whatever) but that gives you immunity to a good chunk of harmful stuff.. Drowning, Damage, Tides, etc.
Though I know what you're saying.... 11 stones is a bit expensive.... Perhaps we should rework the system a bit.... What SHOULD an Elemental Immunity Cost? Personally, according to the old system it was 10 stones.... Personally I see it as more of a 6 stone immunity, but that's me...
What about you?
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 26, 2009 9:55:57 GMT -5
MURPG was charging people 10 stones for being immune to a SINGLE element when you could be immune to all energy for 20???
*takes his ball and goes home*
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Post by Dionon on Feb 26, 2009 9:58:30 GMT -5
LOL! Well now we have the ability to correct that mistake.... Like I said... 6 stones sounds nice to me...
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Post by Neros on Feb 26, 2009 13:06:46 GMT -5
Wow, thats allot of posts..
*coughs*... Yes, Wildknight, I can see what you see in the problem with "deadlyness".. The mechanic in marvel is 1-for-1.. If someone attacked you with a punch of 10 stones, it will be worth just as much as an attack from a Hell-Demons firebreath of 10 stones.. One might have options, but its still 1-for-1.. And you are right that some of the smaller immunities costs way to much..
Dionon, you "GM's Feel" pricing sounds like something that clearly could work..
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 26, 2009 15:37:38 GMT -5
What are you pricing Water at? I've got 11 stones (GM Fait = Psst.. Whatever) but that gives you immunity to a good chunk of harmful stuff.. Drowning, Damage, Tides, etc. I'd say that although water is really common, it is not often a threat. It's not like I'm gonna drown in the sink while I'm washing my hands. (Although in some games that would happen on a bad die roll.) WHAT?! I could have sworn that minor Invulnerabilities cost 3w. Granted, I think that's insanely low, but for some things that almost never come up, (like Bad Luck, or Living Light) I don't care if my players want to spend stones on immunity to something they won't encounter anyway.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 27, 2009 0:43:10 GMT -5
Yea Kaim... 3w for... Immunity to the Rhino Virus.... Not Immunity to Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Magnetism etc... Those are 10 stones.
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Feb 27, 2009 4:32:47 GMT -5
Really? (Ok, now I looked it up.) Still, the official rules for invulnerabilities are crap, and only mention three prices. That pretty much leaves it at "ask your GM."
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Post by Dionon on Feb 27, 2009 8:34:16 GMT -5
Which is why we need a new system... So far the one offered (+ or - the little changes) is the only one that's been offered different.
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