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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 1:18:27 GMT -5
I'll be honest... I ignored the "Advantages/Disadvantages 2.0" Thread. SO if this came up, I apologize.
Area Effect...
We need to split this up a little... Cause honestly, as is, it causes alot of trouble.. especially if you get a dick of a GM who doesn't allow you to further define what kind of area effect you have...
Personally I like the way DnD does it (Yes... another thing I like from them... ) There are 3 different types of area effects...
Cone (Area effect, but only in one hemisphere) Line (Area Effect, but only in a straight wide line leading in one direction) Burst (Classic MURPG Area Effect)
And I'd like to add one that I created, and have used on a limited basis in games.
Limited (This is an area effect that has some sort of dodgeable tangability to it... Like a Giant Fist... If you can get out of the way, you're ok... but everything in the area still takes damage.)
What does everyone think?
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 1:25:24 GMT -5
One of the troubles with areas in MURPG is that it's rarely determined where people are - mostly because movement is very, very liberal. It's going to be hard to determine who's in the way of a Line effect, and who isn't, for example.
I'm up for discussing this stuff, though. I'm interested in Burst patterns (I once started writing a "grenade-like" effect advantage, though I never finished it).
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 1:31:47 GMT -5
D&D's areas are also designed to work on a grid system, which is virtually non-existent in MURPG. Lines, cones, and bursts all have a specified area they cover and there are benefits to using different attacks for different situations.
The reason this is a problem in MURPG is because either the GM is being a jerk, like you said, or the restrictions to area are all in the players and GM's heads. There are no squares or hexes between them to settle the debate or to give merit to different types of areas.
Another annoying thing here is that most comic-book Force Blasts are actually Line attacks and the blasters show an ability to morph them into Cones. Making them work like that would have been one way of balancing them better against Ranged Combat except there's no Reflex Save in MURPG, only Reflexive Dodge and Agility.
Only feats like "Penetrating Shot" in D&D really simulate how comic-book Force Blasts are supposed to work.
What it becomes is a disagreement between player and GM or a refusal by the GM to use maps/grids. Neither of those is a system concern.
So I kinda like your idea, but I don't see how you can make it work in MURPG, and I'm not understanding why you want it.
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 2, 2009 1:34:12 GMT -5
Uh... the biggest problem is that if you look at the Area that most Area Attacks take up... its HUGE and goes exponentially larger if you want to make a bigger attack. Cyclops (if he used an Area Blast) would hit everything for miles around...
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 1:37:15 GMT -5
Uh... the biggest problem is that if you look at the Area that most Area Attacks take up... its HUGE and goes exponentially larger if you want to make a bigger attack. Cyclops (if he used an Area Blast) would hit everything for miles around... ...there's also that. Which becomes a much bigger problem if you allow players to sacrifice circular burst area for more cone or line area (which is how those different attacks work)
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 1:58:42 GMT -5
Hmmmm... Well, like I said... Cone works in a Hemisphere... So if you're behind a guy using a cone, you don't get hit. That one's simple...
Line's a little tougher, BUT, You could make it that it begins as 1 area wide (which would be 5 feet) and move out in a straight line using the Area chart instead of the Ranged Chart... Those people that can turn theirs into Cones would have to take both as advantages... with something like "Line OR Cone"
But you're right on the initial trouble that all force blasts are technically line attacks... It's funny... I wish I had an answer, but right now I don't... Maybe sleeping on it later will help...
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 2:15:59 GMT -5
But you're right on the initial trouble that all force blasts are technically line attacks... It's funny... I wish I had an answer, but right now I don't... Maybe sleeping on it later will help... You forgot to include the operative phrase "in comics" MURPG Force Blasts are just poorly-designed combat actions that are actually better outside of combat than most combat actions.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 2:20:38 GMT -5
The funny thing is, not all Force Blasts are even lines... I mean if I'm playing "Grenade Boy" And I have a Force Blast that allows me to create different strength grenades and fire them out of my hand like a grenade launcher... That's not a line... But that's also a REALLY wonky example... Maybe I'm more tired than I thought lol.
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 2:32:26 GMT -5
Actually I think you hit one of the FEW good aspects of the orginal MURPG 1 Force Blast: Customization
You could make that attack into anything you wanted. It was a completely faceless combat action. In that respect the Force Blast action is one of the best-designed in all of MURPG. It just sucked mathematically because of the poor attack and damage output. It really only sucks because it doesn't have a free way of adding stones (Ability bonus or Weapon modifier) or ignoring certain defenses (Which is the equivalent of adding stones). I think that action comes closer to the core values of MURPG than almost any other.
I wonder if it would've helped just to include the following on that action: (Durability Bonus)
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 7:57:09 GMT -5
Well... no, I don't think we should include a Durability Bonus (Seeing as how Durability doesn't exist anymore ) But your right, it was completely up to the user to describe... Maybe I'm thinking too much lol.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 8:47:51 GMT -5
Are there any canon characters that we're trying to describe with AoE attacks? Storm always comes to mind, but who else? Even when characters are hitting multiple opponents at a time, they could just be splitting stones.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 2, 2009 8:54:26 GMT -5
Some people do have obvious area attacks... Hulk's thunder clap thing comes to mind, as does his leap-attack (you know, where he lands on the ground and creates a massive crater... anybody standing in the area of that crater is going to get hurt).
My thing about Area Attacks is that rather than growing exponentially with the number of stones put in, there should be some kind of logical stopping point. I mean, with Hulk, the higher/harder he jumps, the bigger the crater... but Havok (lets pretend Havok has an area affect at the end of his blast) isn't going to want to leave a smoking crater 3 miles across every time he fires off his blast...
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 8:58:16 GMT -5
Yeah, Hulk is a case where he doesn't seem to be splitting stones. He'd need waaay too many to split them as many ways as necessary.
I do like the idea of Area 2 for free, and pay stones beyond that. That way it's player's choice, and you aren't accidentally leveling the entire city just because you want to actually hurt someone.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 9:58:48 GMT -5
Except Area 2 would make the Force Blast a good substitute for Close Combat. Why punch the guy when you can nuke everything within 30 feet of you ignoring its reflexive dodge?
As for my mention of (Durability Bonus) it was more a reflective thought on how to fix MURPG 1 Force Blasts. In hindsight it shouldn't have been (Durability Bonus) it should have been (Durability Modifier). It would give Force Blasters free stones on their Force Blasts but those free stones would be based on their durability which is very expensive in MURPG 1. I got the idea from D&D, since a lot of Creatures' extraordinary abilities have saves based on their Constitution.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 10:45:39 GMT -5
Force Blasts are already good substitutes for Close Combat. There's nothing stopping you from FBing someone who's trying to kick you in the face - if you have the Action, use it (although chances are you'll have a higher stone output with Close Combat, thanks to the free ability bonus). The other disadvantage of using a 30' area is collateral damage: you're probably going to hit teammates, and damage objects/structures around you.
I don't have much to say about the Durability modifier, other than to say I'm against it for the usual reasons (free stones are bad, why Durability, etc). Let's not talk too much about fixing force blast, if we can - let's stick to talking about Area.
~TWF
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