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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 11:00:12 GMT -5
Area doesn't automatically include collateral damage. It's one of the more empowering aspects of MURPG. "Collateral damage" and "Can't shield friends from power" are disadvantages you attach to a power. Before you attach them you can do an Area 10 attack and hit only your enemies and leave every structure and piece of landscape for 3 miles completely intact. In other systems those are included in your starting package for area-effect powers.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 11:36:37 GMT -5
Malice, that's you're interpretation of the rules. It isn't spelled out what Area does or doesn't do with respect to collateral damage. The GM is allowed to rule that some attacks cause collateral damage regardless of whether or not they have the "automatically causes collateral damage" disadvantage or not. I have a feeling that a lot of GMs are going to describe a 10 stone 10 area attack as messing up a lot of stuff.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 11:41:39 GMT -5
I'd be one of those GMs.
However it IS spelled out within the rules to an extent. If there's a disadvantage for it, that means that unless expessly stated, no action or advantage on an action comes with that disadvantage. After all if you're sticking players with disadvantages they didn't get a discount for then you should also be giving them advantages they didn't pay for, but that's not how it works.
An Area 10 attack is going to mess some stuff up for damn sure... unless it's one of the random made-up energies that Marvel uses and can therefore be defined by the player. Their power could have the effects of a neutron bomb, or attack spirits, or only effect structures, or whatever they want.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 11:45:57 GMT -5
I guess I put more stock in the word "automatically". When you choose that disadvantage, your attacks always cause collateral damage, unless for some reason it makes no sense (GM's decision). If you take a fire element Force Blast with "automatically causes collateral damage" and you put 1 stone into it, you're still going to set something on fire unless the GM thinks its silly (say, you're in a cave made entirely of asbestos, I dunno).
That suggests to me that other attacks might cause collateral damage, just not "automatically".
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 11:48:34 GMT -5
Again, I actually agree with you. However that's the only advantage or disadvantage I know of that includes the word "automatically" and I had expanded what I was saying to include other advantages and disadvantages as well as point out that a player can just make their attack an energy type that doesn't hurt things they don't want it to hurt.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 11:49:36 GMT -5
Also, page 105:
.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 12:12:25 GMT -5
...I know. I've been agreeing with you about that
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 12:18:50 GMT -5
Sorry, we sorta posted at the same time there. ^__^
And yes, some players might come up with an element that conceivably does no collateral damage to structures, ever (Mastery of Cotton!) but you still have to worry about allies and bystanders. AoE is broken for lone wolf games, but in a group.. yikes.
I have rarely ever been in any situations where AoEs would be useful, anyway. At best, they just save time.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 12:23:14 GMT -5
And yes, some players might come up with an element that conceivably does no collateral damage to structures, ever (Mastery of Cotton!) but you still have to worry about allies and bystanders. AoE is broken for lone wolf games, but in a group.. yikes. Why worry about allies and bystanders if you DIDN'T take a disadvantage that says you can't protect them? I have rarely ever been in any situations where AoEs would be useful, anyway. At best, they just save time. ~TWF Of course you haven't! You attach disadvantages to them that the player didn't ask for or get a discount for! Nerfing players with disadvantages they didn't put on their CAD is a great way to keep something from being useful.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 12:34:50 GMT -5
"others not shielded" applies only to powers that typically DO shield others from use. However, off the top of my head, I can't think of any such powers. lol But you're still making the assumption that Area of Effect powers do shield allies. I don't see that anywhere. I'm not saying its wrong, I'm just saying it isn't in words.
I'm looking through Guide to the X-Men (the book that actually lists "others not shielded" as a disadvantage) and I don't even see any characters that have it. *sigh* Way to go, writers!
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 12:37:42 GMT -5
It is in words:
"Others not shielded" in order to gain any kind of definition at all has to make certain assumptions. One such assumption is that WITHOUT the disadvantage others ARE shielded.
Learning to read between those lines and see what isn't written is one of the only ways MURPG works. Partial Phoenix Force can't be improved by lines, but it doesn't say so in directly the Action's description, it says so in the part about a free Flight AN. That's just one example
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 13:36:36 GMT -5
You could always have it where the normal "Area Effect" is just an option of the power... Which means that if you have it, you CAN do an area effect by paying for area. But then you have someone like the aforementioned Havok, who in the core book has no area effect, has a blast of 9, but managed to destroy the Ookie Fanokie (God I spell horrible) swamp with an omnidirectional blast.... How did he do it?
Either way, A Generic Modifier named Durability that you flavor for your Force Blast is fine... I'm don't like the idea of free stones being added for no other reason then we want to amp Force Blast.
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 13:44:26 GMT -5
The only problem with that is players take a discount on the power "Can't adjust area" that's perfectly reasonable but suddenly much more powerful advantages are affordable...
Anecdote: When I first started playing MURPG I actually thought Area Effect worked just like you suggested it should work: You bought it and then adjusted the area and such with extra stones whenever you used the action. I later submitted a CAD to a GM on these boards who was disgusted with me afterward. He informed me how Area Effect REALLY worked and I realized I didn't even want to play the character as I had submitted it because of how Area Effect worked.
Oddly enough I think my mis-interpretation of the rules at that point helped me understand other actual rules later.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 13:46:01 GMT -5
lol. Well, there are characters in Marvel with the "Can't Adjust Area" Flaw... Look at Nitro... the more stones he puts in, the larger the area, no matter what..
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 13:53:07 GMT -5
That's totally cool and fine with me. I'm just saying it shouldn't be available in the base form of the power OR if it IS then it should make the power more expensive.
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