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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 13:55:28 GMT -5
What if "Can't Control Area" isn't a Disadvantage for Villains...
Yes... I know that's being prejudice to villains, but look at Nitro... He LOVES what he does. He literally, if I were a profiler, gets off on it. So.. for a Hero, it might be a -1 CL Disadvantage, but for a Villain, it would be a +1 CL Advantage.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 2, 2009 14:01:41 GMT -5
There are so few characters with AoEs. The only one I could find in Guide to the X-Men was Chamber (and nobody likes him anyway). Such a headache for so little benefit. Argh. lol
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 14:04:56 GMT -5
You're thinking characters they gave AoE to in the books... there are Several characters from the books that HAVE AoE, but they didn't give it to them because of the way it originally worked.
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Post by malice on Mar 2, 2009 14:05:19 GMT -5
They show up in Masteries a lot; probably because the creators seemed to feel that beings powerful enough to project an AoE were Masters of something.
Also not a lot of comic-book characters have them because how exciting is it to wipe out everyone in one panel EVERY ECOUNTER of EVERY ISSUE?
Panel 1:
Standoff scene with stupid dialogue
Panel 2:
Flash of light
Panel 3:
Chillin' back at HQ
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Post by Dionon on Mar 2, 2009 14:11:56 GMT -5
LOL!
Funny thing is... MOST of the Force Blasters in the book have done AoE... Cyclops, Havok, Thor, Storm, and more, cause I'm not looking at the books and am just hurrying through this...
It was just because the rules worked in a lopsided manner that they didnt' receive that advantage.
You're right though, it would be anticlimactic, but also, if you're BBEG gets taken down with one AoE, your GM didn't design that adventure right... I always design my BBEGs with the characters in mind. They are always resistant to what the characters can do, but never immune...
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Post by malice on Mar 3, 2009 3:21:47 GMT -5
I'm interested in allowing players some capacity for "shaping". In fact I'm noticing a leaning towards allowing for several actions in MURPG 2.0 to function as "mini-masteries".
Force Fields could always be used for attack or defense. Now you guys have made an advantage availabe for creating "constructs". I also witnessed a GM allowing a Force Field to function similar to Psi-Weapons (He formed a shield) and Force Blast (He just allocated to attack). I'm loving every bit of it.
When players can do more with their actions, as they often do in comics lately and as we seem to be allowing them to do, the game is more fun. The actual power level doesn't adjust much though.
Check this out:
Mastery of Force 5
+6 Unlimited Create/Manipulate (Dionon's pricing, which is fine for what I'm doing here)
For 20 white stones you can create weapons, armor, walls, and almost any other object within the range of 5 stones. You also can change them on the fly, since they're crafted out of Force and you can manipulate that particular thing to anything imaginable within your AN. It will never be that expensive and a lot of the stuff you can prepare before you'll need it.
Force Field/Psi-weapon 5
+2 to cost level for Force Field
+3 to cost level to include Psi-Weapons
+1 to cost level to include Force Blast
Total +6 cost levels, ending up at 20 white stones
20 white stones gets you the ability to create whatever weapon you want within 5 stones and use it for free, fire a 5 stone Range 4 attack or defend yourself well with a mid-level Force Field.
Argue if you want with how I interpret this action working. I would let a 20 stone action behave this way because when you combine actions you're not JUST combining actions you're creating a new one.
What if we reduced a lot of actions into nothing more than options on more generic actions?
It's just a thought, and unfortunately just like the MURPG 2.0 project as a whole it doesn't cover a lot of character options. I just thought it was interesting. It's not an original thought either, it's just me pointing out a trend I'm seeing.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 3, 2009 7:34:23 GMT -5
Actually that's not a bad idea... Have all the Unique benifits for Charge Objects and Fireworks as options for Force Blast.... that's a great idea.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 3, 2009 10:16:45 GMT -5
There's only one reason to fold one Action into another: If the mechanic is so similar that they're identical, apart from a single option.
I folded Flight and Blasting together because they revolve around the same flight mechanic. Ninja, Black Ops and Thieving also work essentially the same way (although the ability bonus issue is giving me trouble) so it's tempting to fold them together. Likewise, it only took 3 preexisting options to make Charge Objects out of Force Blast.
However, Force Fields and Psi Weapons have incredibly different mechanics - the only similarity is that they're both arguably "force" powers. You can't apply any realistic number options to one, and get the other.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Mar 3, 2009 10:43:40 GMT -5
*blinks* Didn't see that before.... It'd be a REAL stretch to fold them in on each other.
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Post by malice on Mar 3, 2009 23:12:23 GMT -5
However, Force Fields and Psi Weapons have incredibly different mechanics - the only similarity is that they're both arguably "force" powers. You can't apply any realistic number options to one, and get the other. ~TWF ...Yeah, you're right. What was I thinking? Where the hell did I get such a crazy idea? By "construct" I just mean an object made out of force. I've seen characters make stairs, platforms, bridges, walls and other stuff out of force fields. I intend for it to be a +1 option. Basically, stones of effect would determine the construct's size (area up to 2 is free). It would be able to support weight equal to stones spent on the D&R chart. Complex constructs with moving parts are pretty much out of the question. Constructs should also be largely immobile (though maybe in conjunction with Telekinesis they can be moved). I've seen Hellion support people on a flat disc of force; Xavin in Runaways made a bubble that floated on water with a few people inside (who had to scramble around in it like a hamster ball, ha ha). ~TWF Sue Richards has also been shown creating weapons out of pure force. Oh... THAT'S what I was thinking, and there's where I got the idea. As I said in my post, it wasn't an original idea. I'll re-do that combined action from my post above, with your concerns addressed: Force Field 5 +2 Base Cost +1 to cost level to Create Constructs (Only weapons) +3 to cost level for Range 4 if used for offense (+1 for each additional point of range) Dot dot dot Total +6 cost levels, ending up at 20 white stones
20 white stones gets you the ability to create whatever weapon you want within 5 stones and use it for free, fire a 5 stone Range 4 attack or defend yourself well with a mid-level Force Field. Actually I don't suppose you could use the weapon for free... or could you? My post is imperfect but my point should be clear. |
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Post by Dionon on Mar 4, 2009 0:25:04 GMT -5
Wow he stretches good....
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 4, 2009 2:06:50 GMT -5
Maybe it's silly asking this of someone who self-applies the name "Malice" (^_~), but could you please spare some of the sarcasm? It's coming across as rude to me - I hope that isn't the intention, but I thought I'd let you know. Thanks in advance.
As for what you've proposed, you're still combining two Actions based on the fact that they're similar in concept, but not execution/mechanic.
There IS a difference between making a force bridge and making a force weapon. Force constructs are easily duplicated with Force Field (instead of providing you with defense, they support weight; attacking them is exactly like attacking a force field). On the other hand, Psi Weapons use a completely different mechanic.
That was my complaint, and still is. I never complained that it was an original idea of your's - just that you've gone too far, in my opinion, with combining actions in order to represent it. If a player in one of my games wanted to represent a Sue Storm who had both Force Fields and the ability to make force weaponry, I'd direct them towards buying Psi Weapon separately.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 4, 2009 13:08:48 GMT -5
It seems I drew too much attention to my examples for people to realize they were just examples.
My intention was never to say "Force Fields and Psi-Weapons are the same thing!", I just used that as an example to point out the trend I've been noticing that favors more and more generic actions that you make your own either when you buy them or when you use them.
I also wasn't trying to be rude or level any criticism, in fact in my original post that started this part of the discussion I said "I'm loving every bit of it". As I've expressed in other threads, I'm all about letting players play (and therefore create) the character they want to play (within reason, reason = playable scale and scaled to other players/adventure).
If you use the weapon-as-effect system for Psi-Weapons then a player could conceivably create a different weapon every single time over dozens of uses of the action. That's really cool.
If you let people alter the area of their Force Blasts every time they use them, you're giving them a versatile "Mastery of Damaging [Energy of my choice]". That's also really cool.
Using your Force Fields for more than defense is really cool, makes sense, and is useful within the system. A Floating disc is one of two things: A flight platform (And therefore the flight action or TK) or a friggen baggage carrier! That's not a bad thing, although it may seem silly, it's actually a lot of fun to imagine superheros just walking through the airport with their suitcases suspended on a floating disc behind them.
Those are just the three actions I'm mentioning, and I mention them because they're the three closest to complete (that I've read) in MURPG 2.0, not because they're the only actions with that level of flexibility possible.
The original reason I spoke of this "trend" is to point out that we can actually pursue this line of thought and create a fun system that still works like MURPG but allows players a lot more options. The question is do we want to pursue it?
Atm I don't care what the project is called, but in my opinion so far it looks a lot more like MURPG 1.5 than MURPG 2.0. Again, I don't care and I'm not criticizing anyone, just pointing out how much we're changing and how much we're NOT changing.
I posted it in this thread because the title is so irrevocably flexible.
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Post by takewithfood on Mar 4, 2009 13:28:45 GMT -5
I wouldn't quite characterize what we've been doing as a trend towards making Actions more generic. All I've been trying to do is to avoid as much duplication as possible (or as convenient, really).
Imagine a hypothetical Action that is basically Web Slinging, but it's called "Cable Swinging". It's exactly the same as Web Slinging in every way, but your max speed is only 75 mph, not 125 mph, and it's one cost level cheaper. Why bother having two Actions, when one is basically just the other with one disadvantage? I'm just trying to sort some of those issues out.
I'm not actually in favour of making Actions more generic. It's a neat idea to have very generic Actions that can be customized into almost anything else - but that just makes character creation tiresome. I think it's better to have rules for the common and distinct Actions ready to use. I'd like to cover as many bases as possible/convenient. That's about it.
~TWF
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Post by malice on Mar 4, 2009 23:03:03 GMT -5
I think I know that's what you were after. Although I would call that making actions more generic, I guess you call it something different.
I feel like grouping actions together that function in similar ways:
Black Ops
Thieving
Hunting/Tracking
Private Investigating
Statecraft
Leadership
Power Boost
Drain Energy
Fear
Energy Absorption/Reflection? Nah
Horsemanship
Vehicle Operation
Invisibility
Shapeshifting
Manipulate Body Density
Growth
Shrinking
Concentration
Iron Will
Biocomputing
Social Skills
Business Skills
Pscychiatry
Dance
Technology
Computers
Swimming
Wall-Crawling
Web-Slinging
Flight
Inventing
Genetic Engineering
Manipulate Mutagenic Fields
Metamorphosis
Popular versions of Kinetic Energy Absorption
Ranged Combat
Close Combat
Force Blast
Pheromones
As bored as I would have to be to START making this list I've reached the threshold where I'm too bored of it to put more in it. It's actually pretty close to complete.
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