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Post by mcfly on Mar 12, 2009 18:28:37 GMT -5
one simple reason if your action called hardenskin only gives defense and has no other abilities it's useless your better off using close combat for defense and achieving the same thing with the option of attacking with it as well.
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Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 12, 2009 18:43:28 GMT -5
ahh, but with close combat it would be a 1 for defense boost as opposed to a 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 defense/stones of energy ratio. This would make a defensive action feasible but still require energy to be spent.
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Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 12, 2009 18:45:26 GMT -5
or it could be a duration effect. pay stones up to your action number and increase defense by that amount for X panels, or a 1 stone per panel to keep it in effect for up to AN panels.
The point is, it requires energy stones to be spent to see the benefit as opposed to simply having it in perpetuity.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 13, 2009 2:03:27 GMT -5
Because Rogue is as Tough as the Hulk.... but not NEARLY his equal in any way shape or form unless she attempts to steal his superpowers... which if I remember right... failed.
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Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 13, 2009 15:35:53 GMT -5
so let me ask a question. Is it more important to you to have a system that can accurately represent comics entirely or system which is less accurate but more balanced?
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Post by Dionon on Mar 13, 2009 15:58:58 GMT -5
Personally, I'd like a system that represents the comics accurately. What's the use of playing a superhero if you aren't super?
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Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 13, 2009 16:12:29 GMT -5
so you would rather a game that endeavors to replicate all abilities in all marvel comics as opposed to one that is simpler, more streamlined and more balanced?
I can understand the desire, but that makes so little sense to me as a game designer.
Fundamentally, the game mechanic should operate well without any of the flavor of a setting. Attempting to create a game that mimics the comics reduces it to something that is only usable for comics type games.
Designing a system that is well balanced, and then naming things with the flavor of the setting produces a much better product in the end.
I am coming from the 'produce a game that plays well in the marvel setting' you seem to want to 'take the marvel setting a produce a game around it'
Nothing wrong with either. I just think the second is far more complicated and has a much narrower spectrum of use.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 13, 2009 16:17:58 GMT -5
I don't mean that the system mimics Marvel Comics... just that it mimics the flavor and feel OF comics.
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Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 13, 2009 19:06:27 GMT -5
ok, so can you run me through how you see defense working?
What I keep hearing is people want to be able to control toughness and reflexive dodge.
I maintain that free stones to defense contributes greatly to breaking the game. I mitigate this by removing it as a modifier and make it a byproduct of stats so everyone has at least some, making a bell curve, and evening the playing field. I think this is a good thing.
The best argument I have seen against this system is "rogue is as tough as hulk" which is fine. just make rogues physical stats to match. I mean she is already strong. by removing the x3 cost of durability and making health its own stat we solve the problem.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 13, 2009 22:18:16 GMT -5
Well honestly, I've never been opposed to defenses running through stats. It makes ALOT of sense. What I've been opposed to all this time was the inability to raise your defense higher at character creation, since there are those beings in Marvel (Like Rogue, Juggernaut and Wonderman) who are ALOT tougher than they should be given their stats. Even I've made characters that are mostly normal... maybe 1 4, but they have high defenses because of character concept.
All I'm saying is give the player a way to up their natural static defenses if they feel they want to. Boom, problem solved.... What cost you ask? I'm thinking (Existing Defensive Ability + Increase) + 3 = CL... That way no one is getting off cheap, everyone pays excatly the same for everything from The Hulk to The Punisher.
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Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 13, 2009 22:57:51 GMT -5
Ok. I understand that argument. I think you have overlooked that my main gripe is free defense stones every panel. I have suggested abilities that allow a character to add to their defense at beneficial rates.
IE
Close combat is a 1 defense increase for 1 stone
clairvoyant evasion would work something along the lines of... AN 4 allows you to spend 4 stones and get a 2 for 1 ratio and get 8 additional stones of reflexive dodge for a panel
harden skin AN 4 would let you increase your toughness by 4 for 4 initial and 1 additional stone per panel for 4 panels.
I think this, fundamentally, is better for the combat system. Resource management becomes paramount. But, at the same time, you are not entirely defenseless no matter how much of a stat monkey you are.
I dont understand the resistance to this idea. Capping free defense stone in favor of actions that give you a defense increase at the cost of energy.
the ONLY instance that this isnt better on the whole is when you have a 'character idea that is stat weak but still tough as nails' which doesn't make any sense to me. IF you are tough all of the time, you should have something in your stats to reflect that. IF you CAN BE tough, it should require stones to do that.
Honestly, I just dont get why you are still holding on to the old way of doing things. It is inferior in every aspect. It breaks that game. It requires LESS planning and management of energy stones, one of them is almost required to be effective in combat or you have to have a huge energy pool or some method of gaining energy so you can continually dump it in to defense.
Defense increases as actions are superior to being able to purchase passive (free) defense.
Give me some actual arguments against instead of one off examples of "but I could do this with the old system, or it happened in the comics." That doesn't carry any weight when you are trying to develop a balanced combat system.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 13, 2009 23:22:55 GMT -5
Umm... I've never used the old system as my examples... or my arguments. I'm using the fact of what has happened in the past for characters. And the experience I have with Comic Book roleplaying.
Comics are supposed to be dynamic... If you're worrying every turn on whether you put stones in defense, you're going to slow down the game and basically drag your feet. On the other hand, giving someone the ability to be tougher than their stats intail, is a STAPLE of Comic Books, especially for people like the afformentioned Rogue who honestly, according to Marvel Proper, maxes out at 50 tonnes of lift... Which, by the DnR, is 8 str, but it doesn't give her the "nearly invulnerable" skin she WOULD have because of the new way we're doing things... 8+4 = 12 /2 = 6... Now, 6 is good... that's Steel Hard Skin, but it's NOT nearly invulnerable. So, she SHOULD have a way at character creation to up her 6 to the 8 it's supposed to be.
Then there's Juggernaught, who, honestly, they could have just made Physically and Energy Invulnerable instead of dealing with Toughness +9 and Force Field of 5, and +2 Costume that's Indestructable... It would have come out to a little less actually... But they decided that even though he's "Invulnerable" That means he's got a Toughness of 9... BUT 9+6 = 15 / 2 (rounded down) is 7... much less than his "Invulnerable" self should have...
I don't see where you're not willing to compromise on this issue. I'm not saying you don't have good ideas for certain concepts, what I'm saying is that your idea should be just that... for certain concepts. Just like my idea works for certain concepts, and unfortunately, given the nature of comic books as a whole, both should be included, as there are examples of each that could be brought out.
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Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 13, 2009 23:57:23 GMT -5
ok. I have given this a bit of thought and just came up with a new idea that I think will satisfy both of us.
because durability has had some talk of simply being removed in favor of a health and energy stats, why dont we say that toughness does have to be bought in the old way and works just like damage reduction in D&D.
Reflexive dodge remains the average of spd and agility, but can't be improved. This seems to fit logically. instead of the old way where it also reduces damage, it an attack beats it all stones go through as damage.
This way, everyone has a natural ability to avoid hits, but not simply absorb the damage.
This way, the free stones to defense a limited to what you buy in toughness and you don't get double effectiveness from having a huge strength. I think this follows more in line with the comics after some reflection on what super fast characters do and super strong characters do.
Fast are normally pretty good at getting out of the way, but strong doesn't always mean tough and vice versa.
I think it solves you desire to build the tough but not strong character and addresses my issue with free stones to defense.
And sorry if I got a bit derogatory in my last post. I can be pretty darn stubborn.
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Post by Neros on Mar 14, 2009 3:28:29 GMT -5
the ONLY instance that this isnt better on the whole is when you have a 'character idea that is stat weak but still tough as nails' which doesn't make any sense to me. I know you tried to solve Why shouldent you be able to make a average build character who is tough?? And what about the other way around? How will you make a strong character which isent tough? But so fare, I like the system less and less.. It sounds rather clonky and complex.. Also, if someone has hardskin, making it a action sounds wierd.. To make it work, you need to place stones, but if you can't, you're hard skin wont be "active".. Which sounds silly.. Which would mean the Things skin will be less hard when he is sleeping.. And for the "dodge but if you get hit you get the whole thing".. So if someone shoots at you and you would be able to dodge some of the bullets, Defense: 5 and Attack 6.. But because you can't dodge the whole attack, you will get hit by all the bullets?
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Post by Dionon on Mar 14, 2009 7:20:48 GMT -5
ok. I have given this a bit of thought and just came up with a new idea that I think will satisfy both of us. because durability has had some talk of simply being removed in favor of a health and energy stats, why dont we say that toughness does have to be bought in the old way and works just like damage reduction in D&D. Reflexive dodge remains the average of spd and agility, but can't be improved. This seems to fit logically. instead of the old way where it also reduces damage, it an attack beats it all stones go through as damage. This way, everyone has a natural ability to avoid hits, but not simply absorb the damage. This way, the free stones to defense a limited to what you buy in toughness and you don't get double effectiveness from having a huge strength. I think this follows more in line with the comics after some reflection on what super fast characters do and super strong characters do. Fast are normally pretty good at getting out of the way, but strong doesn't always mean tough and vice versa. I think it solves you desire to build the tough but not strong character and addresses my issue with free stones to defense. And sorry if I got a bit derogatory in my last post. I can be pretty darn stubborn. Don't worry about it, I've had worse arguments on this board, and you weren't that bad. Now... Personally, if we're going to change the way initial defense is done, we should probably have them bought the same way. Either Buy them seperately, or use the Defense Matrix (And no I don't give this choice to the PCs, I'm saying we as the creators decide this) Personally, I'm in favor of the Defense Matrix, as it's a simple, effective system. What I'm not in agreement in is that if your Reflexive Dodge fails, all the stones go to Toughness. In comics, as in life, people can turn killing blows into less than killing blows, simply by moving just a bit. That's the equivalent of Reflexive Dodge removing at least SOME of the stones of damage. I know what you're going to say however... "Getting White Stones of Health is so much cheaper now, you don't have to worry about that..." Well, let me tell ya something. With the old Durability being split into 3 stats, it can easily become a monster to buy high anything. Yes, you can buy high health, and a High Energy Pool and a High Energy Regen, but it's going to cost you an arm and a leg. For now, we've reduced the cost of basic defense. Lowered Reflexive Dodge, Lowered Toughness. I don't see why we shouldn't allow those people that want tougher people to be tougher for a price, or become weaker for a bonus. Also, this gives players extra stones to buy new and different actions at the redone costs that we're making. Most of the more attractive actions have been raised in price from what I've seen, or reduced in effectiveness without options that push the cost much higher than it used to be. I can see having "Harden Skin" I've done that on characters before, but it's been for an effect. One of my currently active characters on this board "Fatty McGee" Has an action called "Get Fatter" which acts like Harden Skin for the most part, except he can keep it up if he burns a stone each panel. But that's for a player to decide, not us. All our job is, is to set the basics, and let the universe progress from there. And the rule of KISS still applies, even to defense. Perhaps Durability should be a statistic again... But it would represent your Health and general Stamina, but not your Energy Pool or Regeneration rate... so it's like Health, but with it's old meaning so it can be applied to the Defense Matrix like normal.. In the end, The Defense Matrix + Ability to Improve or Lessen, makes the most sense, is the simplest, and has the most room for growth then any of the other systems done out. I know, it might break the system, but you have to remember something. You yourself said that the rest of the system is based around Defense. So by deciding now, whatever we come up with isn't going to break the system, because the resulting system is going to be made to counteract that Defense.
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