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Post by malice on Mar 9, 2009 12:00:38 GMT -5
For the most part the old Phase Shift action worked pretty well with the Phase Attack option being arguably too cheap. Even if you don't think it was too cheap in 1.0, it doesn't matter because it can't be directly translated to 2.0 due to the Armor Pentration system being handled differently in this system AND because you can buy a generic modifier that will greatly increase the lethality of your Phase Attacks.
I suggest something as simple as this:
Phase Shift
+1 to Cost level + additional cost*
*Pay extra for this action to decide the maximum material class you can pass through
Phase Attack would be between 3 and 5 cost levels more expensive depending on whether it granted 2x damage (it makes sense that it does). I personally think Phase Stun should be included either in the action or in the Attack advantage by default rather than being a seperate advantage.
I also think it should be a +1 advantage to be capable of fine manipulation of your form. That is: Without the advantage you're either phased or you're not, but WITH the option you can choose to have parts of you solid and parts of you phased. This advantage would be included in the Phase Attack advantage (Subsumed).
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Post by de5pa1r on Mar 10, 2009 9:13:39 GMT -5
I always thought Phase Shift was extremely cheap for what it did (grant complete immunity to physical attacks). Taking Phase Shift at 4 means you put 4 stones into it every 4 turns and can never be physically hurt. Contrast this to Force Field 1.0, which most of us thought was broken, where you put in 3 or 4 stones every turn and can still be hit...you see where I'm going. IMO, Phase Shift ought to cost at least +4 CL.
That being said, perhaps the Phase Attack could be cheaper, like +2 or +3. I like the +1 CL manipulation of form idea.
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Post by malice on Mar 10, 2009 13:41:53 GMT -5
Unlike a Force Field you can't use it constantly, you MUST unphase for at least a panel. Also unlike a Force Field there is no advantage to make Phase Shift count against magical or mental attacks. Finally, without the Phase Attack option you can't really hurt anyone while you're Phased, and even if you do it's a melee attack.
Even if we do increase the cost of Phase Shift, I'm really preferring making some or all of the extra cost the material class through which you can pass.
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Post by de5pa1r on Mar 11, 2009 10:58:47 GMT -5
Who said anything about Phase Shift 1.0 making you unphase for a panel? You invest 3 into PS, 3rd turn you unphase and phase back at more or less the same time.
Mental Defense + Magical Defense + Phase Shift all at 4 = 8w
*Invest 4 red every 4 turns. Grants complete physical invulnerability and a significant mental/magical defense modifier.
vs
FF that works vs. Mental and Magic attacks at 2 = 7w
*Invest 2 red every turn (that is, 8 red every 4 turns). Grants 4 physical, mental, and magical defense.
Let's not forget that Phase Shift grants a form of Flight at 1 for free. How is this balanced?
I've never let any of my players use their Force Field to attack while they're using it for defense without taking an advantage that allows them to. Same thing with Phase Shift. Whether or not it's a melee attack makes no difference at all in terms of game balance; if a FF user wants to attack someone far away, they still have to invest stones just to get the FF to them even before they invest stones into attack.
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Post by malice on Mar 11, 2009 11:11:12 GMT -5
Who said anything about Phase Shift 1.0 making you unphase for a panel? You invest 3 into PS, 3rd turn you unphase and phase back at more or less the same time. Every GM I ran into made it so you had to have a panel of rest in between Phasing to your full AN of panels. So if you had Phase Shift 4, you could Phase for 4 panels, rest for a panel, and then phase for 4 more panels. They did that because the way you interpret it - that you can phase indefinitely without anyone ever getting a shot at you - IS broken. Let's not forget that Phase Shift grants a form of Flight at 1 for free. How is this balanced? That aspect sucks and really doesn't empower the action much. Take it from someone who plays Phase Shifters often. It's not useless, it's just not worth considering in the power of the action. I've never let any of my players use their Force Field to attack while they're using it for defense without taking an advantage that allows them to. Same thing with Phase Shift. Whether or not it's a melee attack makes no difference at all in terms of game balance; if a FF user wants to attack someone far away, they still have to invest stones just to get the FF to them even before they invest stones into attack. So you saddle your Force Field-using players with the disadvantage "Can't split stones between attack and defense" without giving them a discount for it? That's just mean dude. By its very nature you can attack AND defend with a Force Field in the same panel, but you must split stones just like you have to with every other action that can allocate to attack and defense. Anyway I DID say I didn't mind making Phase Shift more expensive. I would just like to make sure that some or all of that extra cost takes the Material Class through which you can phase into account. |
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Post by de5pa1r on Mar 11, 2009 11:24:19 GMT -5
Every GM I ran into made it so you had to have a panel of rest in between Phasing to your full AN of panels. So if you had Phase Shift 4, you could Phase for 4 panels, rest for a panel, and then phase for 4 more panels. They did that because the way you interpret it - that you can phase indefinitely without anyone ever getting a shot at you - IS broken. ...If we both agree that Phase Shift 1.0 is broken in this regard, and most of the people around here agree as well, shouldn't we nail down the rule for PS 2.0 before moving on? Kinda seems like we're putting the cart in front of the horse. Anyway, your idea that Phase Shift ought to cost more depending on the materials you can pass through is good. Agreed. |
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Post by malice on Mar 11, 2009 11:48:33 GMT -5
...If we both agree that Phase Shift 1.0 is broken in this regard, and most of the people around here agree as well, shouldn't we nail down the rule for PS 2.0 before moving on? Kinda seems like we're putting the cart in front of the horse. I made the thread didn't I? Lol, I feel like you missed the part where you were talking about Phase Shift in a thread dedicated to its translation to 2.0  . So how about this: Phase Shift Cost = AN + 2 levels + Special (see below) You and anything or person of your choice and that you touch become immaterial for as many panels as stones you place in the action box to a maximum number of panels equal to your action number. Once you've phased for as many panels as your action number, you must rest in solid form for a panel before re-phasing. When you buy the action pay additional stones for a maximum material class through which you can pass. While immaterial you are immune to Physical Attacks (They pass right through you) most energy attacks with a lesser or equal Material class to the one you bought. You do not gain immunity to Mental or Magical attacks while immaterial. If you breath then you still breath while phased and are vulnerable to gas, pheremonal attacks, etc., although you may be more resistant to them while immaterial. +1 to cost level to be able to manipulate your form so that you can have parts solid and parts phased. This allows you to attack with basic attacks while Phase Shifted, as well as manipulate physical objects +3 to cost level for Phase Attack. Ignores all defensive armor or Toughness and does 2x damage. Requires you to be able to manipulate your form. +1 to cost level for Phase Stun. Works like Phase Attack except does stun damage. Requires Phase Attack. So if a player wants an action that works like 1.0 Phase Shift with Phase Attack and stun they're paying +7 to cost level + Material Class 4 (5 stones). Oddly that works out with nearly the same pricing, but the action is more defined and the material class puts a nice leash on it. |
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 11, 2009 11:56:38 GMT -5
Still feels a little cheap if you don't buy Phase Attack.
AN+2, I could easily buy at AN 5 or 6. In the first panel I put in my 6 stones, and lets face it, I'm phased for the length of most battles. Oh, and I'm immune to all physical harm. And can pass through walls. And essentially fly.
Obviously, this beats the pants off of Force Field
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Post by malice on Mar 11, 2009 12:07:29 GMT -5
*shrug* I guess I'm just not as impressed by immunity as everyone else.
Big deal if you can't be hurt by most energy or physical attacks for 5 panels at the cost of 11 character creation stones, you really can't hurt anyone either. The flat cost of Material Classes hurts, just as flat-cost modifiers in MURPG 1 hurt.
Oh you're a telepath with Phase Shift? Why did you spend stones on Phase Shift since telepaths can do their worst without anyone even knowing they're doing anything.
Oh you're a magic-user with Phase Shift? Wtf is the Phase Shift for when your likely-magical setting is full of things that ignore it?
We can up it to +3 or something, but for the record it gets really redundant being told "it's too cheap, it's too cheap" over and over again without said redundancies being coupled with suggestions for better pricing.
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 11, 2009 13:16:05 GMT -5
Uh, you're blowing off all of the reasons its great to be intangible, but they're very serious problems.
For many, many reasons intangibility is better than simply not being seen/noticed (Telepaths), and for a person with magic to get around your intangibility, they need to spend (at least) a panel coming up with some effect that will do so... and it'll cost them a significant chunk of their ability to otherwise harm you.
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Post by malice on Mar 11, 2009 19:58:01 GMT -5
Is everyone so eager to attack my thoughts on Phase Shift that they're deliberately overlooked the fact that I've agreed to increase its cost like 3 times?
Let me do it again: OK. Let's increase the price to account for the power of the action. My last suggestion was +2 base cost + the material class you can pass through. If that's too cheap, what cost would you suggest?
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Post by de5pa1r on Mar 11, 2009 20:28:51 GMT -5
Ok, +2 base cost enabling the character to pass through class 1 or 2 material would be acceptable to me if and only if a character that could not pass through, say, titanium would still be hit by something made of titanium even if they were phased.
Of course then we'd have a balance issue of physical weapons vs force blasts, etc.
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Post by malice on Mar 11, 2009 20:37:34 GMT -5
Of course then we'd have a balance issue of physical weapons vs force blasts, etc. Actually in 2.0 you purchase a Material Class for your Force Blasts too, or at least you can if you want them to pierce armor or destroy objects. So a basic Phase Shift could phase and be immune to a basic Force Blast, but if they both bought material classes then you would see who bought the better one. Then... to the victor go the spoils. If a Phase Shifter buys the ability to pass through Material Class 4 they could pass through almost everything and almost everything would pass through them. Here is the link to the thread in which AP in MURPG 2.0 is discussed. I thought I should include it since I've been referring back to it a lot, which is kinda unfair to you. If you want to discuss the AP system that's the thread to do it in. I actually like the system although high Material Classes are probably a little cheap. I actually like that they're cheap though, since most comic book character with superpowers could rip apart some badass materials. |
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 11, 2009 20:47:46 GMT -5
Remember that Penetration Class 4 penetrates everything UP TO Class 4 material... not INCLUDING Class 4, so it has to be somewhat cheap, as you'll still find yourself unable to penetrate some things.
As far as the Phase Shifting... for me, the biggest problem isn't what materials they can phase through so much as the fact that its ridiculously cheap (in terms of energy pool/regeneration) to spend 1 stone/panel of duration.
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Post by malice on Mar 11, 2009 21:00:33 GMT -5
Well you can't actually do that much with the action itself. I just kept it the way it was because it works so damn well. You can argue about the cost all you like, but Phase Shift really seemed to work pretty well in MURPG 1.
There was some fuss once people realized how handy it was with Prescience and that it had all kinds of insta-K.O. options, but the mechanic of 1 stone = 1 panel of duration is as simple as it gets. I think a cost increase would be fair, and a better explanation of what you can pass through and when, but that basic mechanic is really solid.
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