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Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 17, 2009 18:11:59 GMT -5
So, I have been doing some thinking and I have come to the conclusion that before defense can be properly finished in design, the issue of free stones to an action must be addressed.
I am not attempting to advocate for or against in this thread, but to highlight the implications on all aspects of this game that free stones create.
What should provide free stones? Should there be limits to the number of free stones in a panel? should there be a limit to actions that provide free stones?
I mean powers or whatever that give a player free stones of energy to a given action. Not free character creation or other kinds of stones. Just for clarity sake.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 17, 2009 21:27:04 GMT -5
Warning, these answers are just my opinions
1. What should provide free stones? Free stones come from Modifiers.. (even equipment provide modifiers, unless they are powered by the body, and then are considered actions) 2. Should there be limits to the number of free stones in a panel? Not beyond a GM's good judgment... no 3. should there be a limit to actions that provide free stones? Yes, there are very few actions out there that provide any free stones, and with good reason, they are generally powerful actions and are priced accordingly (for the most part)
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Post by feloniousmonk on Mar 18, 2009 0:45:32 GMT -5
ok. So what is the list of actions that provide free stones?
I have seen a couple of arguments that would give free stones based on abilities to compensate for 'natural ability' and 'trained ability'
While I am not against this per se, I think it needs to be taken in to account at the beginning of dev talk.
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Post by malice on Mar 18, 2009 1:17:08 GMT -5
At the moment those types of actions are being discussed and haven't seen conclusion.
I THINK Psi-Weapons still provides free stones, but not as many (Half your AN). IF I'm right then Psi-Weapons is the only action in MURPG 2.0 that will have weapons adding stones to your attack. Other weapons just give an advantage to your attack, like 2x damage or range.
Force Field is still being fought over, most suggestions for it do NOT give free stones though. Instead most suggestions take damage out of your energy reserve to simulate the strain of maintaining a Force Field while it gets pummeled.
Sorry I can't give you more stuff and that it's not very conclusive, but we're only part-way through the project and two of its biggest initiators haven't shown much interest for a week or two. For my part, since you said Defense is really important to design, I've been directing people to that thread.
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Post by Neros on Mar 18, 2009 3:50:46 GMT -5
Even things powered by the body could provide free stones.. Or well, have we found out what we do with Claws and Targeting? I seem to recal something about making Natural Modifiers kinda work like Targeting (For every stone spend, you get 1 from you're modifier, upto you're Modifier Number).
But at the moment, Psi-weapons and Leadership seems like the only two actions which give free stones..
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 18, 2009 6:32:41 GMT -5
*rubs temples*
This is why this project will NEVER be finished.
No offense. I realize that everyone is just trying to help and just wants this game to be the best it can be...
But this is something that TWF, Dionon, and I had argued out MONTHS AGO.
I can't begin to count the number of things that have been resolved and then forcibly rehashed by someone new showing up and deciding they wanted to toss their 2 cents into the well.
Stuff like this is why I've lost interest.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 18, 2009 9:10:09 GMT -5
Perhaps it's time we organize an official Staff?
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Mar 18, 2009 13:42:53 GMT -5
*rubs temples* This is why this project will NEVER be finished. That's what I've been saying from the beginning, but nobody listened to me then...Yes, clearly you three combined are an all-knowing, perfect entity, incapable of overlooking any possible flaws... You know, except not.Apparently it's a bad thing that other people like myself want to fix the system, too, just not in the exact same way that you guys do which I feel does about as much harm as good. Huh....And yet you still post here. Moving on. Perhaps it's time we organize an official Staff? I suppose you could do that, but since everyone should have an important say, I wouldn't recommend it. The way I figure it, everyone has their own unique perspective, so more people participating will amount to better decisions in the end. Besides, it's not like a small team of people will make rules that the rest of us agree on when it comes time to run 2.0. Every GM is going to have their own house rules, and that's just the way it is. It's all well and fine to suggest fixes for certain rules, but at the end of the day, each GM will make his or her own decision about what they'll change and what they'll keep anyway, so there's really no point in trying to agree about any of it.
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 18, 2009 15:49:00 GMT -5
Kai...
Shut the hell up.
I have no more patience for your bullsh*t, so just shut up.
You're smart enough to realize that we'll never finish the project (in fact, you seem to PREFER that it not be finished) if we don't make some hard cutoffs, YET you also somehow seem to support the idea that we should be open to endless rounds of new people coming in and arguing for changes and revisions of things that have long since been hashed out.
This leads me to conclude you posted SOLELY for the purpose of getting under my skin. Congratulations. You've succeeded. You're an a$$. Remember this day so that you can tell your grandchildren.
*****************************************************
Bottom line: I couldn't care less who claims to have what experience or to know what. At some point if there isn't someone who can make some executive decisions, then this will be nothing more than an exercise in opinion-spewing, and I for one envisioned it having the potential to be much more.
I was content for the most part to let TWF act as an executive editor of sorts, because he does split the difference (largely) between Dionon's style of wide-eyed "allow it all!" optimism and my cynical belief that everything has to be tightly controlled to keep players from wrecking the game.
TWF seems to have stepped back from that capacity, and I can't blame him... how many times did we have something nailed down and them somebody, well meaning as they may have been, stepped in and nuked a thread that we'd worked long and hard to come to an agreement on, turning it into yet another brushfire war?
This is NOT how the creative process gets resolved, people.
As far as I can tell, TWF isn't even around much anymore, but if this project is going to go forward and have any merit, it needs to have an "executive committee" of 3 people so that everything can eventually get a yay or nay vote, there can be no ties, and once decided, a matter can be shelved until such time as another matter forces us to re-think it.
Otherwise, we're tilting at windmills.
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Mar 18, 2009 17:17:00 GMT -5
Sigh.
I generally believe in patience, and in waiting for the best solution to be presented. Three guys in a thread may take a day to improve Force Fields, but a thread that goes on longer may find an even better solution. Two weeks, 4 more people, and a few dozen posts later, how much better will the end product be?
That said, if we're going to be serious about getting things done, we can't wait forever. (In that respect, I definately agree with WildKnight.) But nothing should everything be decided so quickly and by so few.
I think any official staff should wait until more ideas have been presented. Give every topic a month or two (or more) for everyone to show up, voice their opinions, suggest their fixes... wait until a topic has cooled down, and then send in the staff to sort out the ideas. Then post their decision on the boards, and hope nobody finds a problem with it.
Short version: What's the rush?! The longer the discussion, the better the solution. I support fixing the system... one house rule at a time. I'd trust a small staff to sort out the best ideas, but not to find the best ideas by themselves. Thus, I do not recommend assembling an official staff at this time.
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 18, 2009 18:04:42 GMT -5
The longer the discussion, the better the solution. This is FLATLY untrue. There is a sweet spot where everything worthwhile to say has been said and you're just creating frustration. Too many cooks spoil the broth.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 18, 2009 19:58:35 GMT -5
WK... I take your suggestion to heart (About a tribunal) And have come up with a solution.
Since you represent Conservitism in the extreme, We'll start with you Since I represent Libralism in the extreme, We'll go with me Now we need someone that bisects us, Which WOULD have been TWF, but like you said, he's not here much anymore. He'll be back, but until he is, if he's on the tribunal we can't move forward. I would suggest Either Neros or Malice as our third member, as they have a great deal of useful input, and have proven time and again that they can produce balanced rules, and they don't lean to heavily your way or mine.
What say you?
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Post by Neros on Mar 19, 2009 10:26:19 GMT -5
I agree Wildknight.. The more we discuss the rules, the better, BUT, at some point it will become to much and will prolounge the "production" unnecessary.. How about we use the list I suggested awhile back, to keep track of what ideas have been agreed on which just needs to be tested and what suggestions have been tested.. These are however not the complete list.. I can make one when Im not sick anymore and at that point, I'll also add them in alphabethic order and maybe make it into a text file WORK IN THE TEST BOX[/b] CORE MECHANICPricing System Main Abilities Health and Healing Factors Energy & Regeneration Weapons/Equipment Power Armors ====== ADVANTAGES/DISADVANTAGES[/u] Armor Penetration Area Effect ====== ACTIONSTelepathy Force Field Steal SuperPower Phase Shift Psi Weapons Magic Masteris Ninja Manipulate Body Density Flight Blasting "Inventing" Metamorphosis Tendril Whip Telepathy ====== MODIFIERSInvulnrability Transform Self Wealth Prescience Reconstitude Self ================================ COMPLETEDCORE MECHANICADVANTAGES/DISADVANTAGES[/u] ACTIONSMODIFIERS
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Post by WildKnight on Mar 19, 2009 10:40:59 GMT -5
WK... I take your suggestion to heart (About a tribunal) And have come up with a solution. Since you represent Conservitism in the extreme, We'll start with you Since I represent Libralism in the extreme, We'll go with me Now we need someone that bisects us, Which WOULD have been TWF, but like you said, he's not here much anymore. He'll be back, but until he is, if he's on the tribunal we can't move forward. I would suggest Either Neros or Malice as our third member, as they have a great deal of useful input, and have proven time and again that they can produce balanced rules, and they don't lean to heavily your way or mine. What say you? Of the two, I'd prefer Neros (which I say because he put in the work to compile the house rules, and you have to respect that dedication), though I do think both Malice and Neros lean more towards an open-handed approach. Ultimately, however I'm fine with that. Even if I get overruled on everything, at the end of the day we'll still be making forward progress which, at the moment, we are not. We need to put some order to this chaos... work on one thing at a time, allow time for those who wish to voice their opinions to do so, and so on, but at the end of the day its still going to have to come down to a small group of decision makers making some decisions that aren't going to sit well with everyone. I also don't feel that theres all that much value in testing sectional elements of the system with the old system as a base. As far as I'm concerned, the old system has been tossed in the round file, so I have no interest in seeing how our ideas would have shaken out were they in that system. The goal when we started this was concise and well understood; to create a NEW system rather than continuing to attempt to patch the old one with house rule after house rule after house rule. Neros seems to have some good organizational ideas, and I think we at the very least should consider what he's saying.
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Post by Dionon on Mar 19, 2009 12:59:26 GMT -5
*nods* Full agreement here.
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