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Post by Stark on May 16, 2009 22:05:00 GMT -5
What can I say? I'm a idiotic fool.  I wasn't speaking about "Dsables if damage occurs", I was speaking about "Dreamscape". That doesn't do any damage for real, so I don't agree that it should be worth the +5 of "disables if any damage occurs." Being affected by illusions doesn't hurt you. This is another thing I disagree with you on this particular power. I think what bothers players the most with "instant k.o" is that they're stunned/frozen in place/disabled, and thus they can't act, which takes away the fun. This action still allows you to act in the Dream World, so you're still participating in a way to the game, just not in the main action. It takes you out of the main fight, but now you have your own problems to face in the Dream World whatever it is. About the options, you're pretty much right, and most GMs wouldn't allow them anyway... but they have happened in several movies/comics and stuff, so I included them. Like I said, I like to make rules for any power or action I see, and a good CAD of Freddy Kruegger would have this power with the last option. Even if it's overpowered... Freddy has it. So I made a rule for it. And I will make new rules for every power I see in movies or comics so that GMs can have an already made rule to reflect such powers if they want to include them in a game. I'm kind of a power gamer, that's true. However, I know when a certain power is funnier than others, and I know this one beats being frozen solid and not being able to act, it beats being mind-controlled and attacking allies. And given to someone with enough imagination, it can make a game darn fun. I'm sure of it. ^_^ But thanks for your comments. Like I said, I knew we wouldn't agree on this, but I still made it for those who might like it.  |
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Post by Stark on May 16, 2009 22:10:37 GMT -5
I'm adding this to the way the powers works: Notes A mutant having either a Mastery of Reality or Mastery of Dreams, a powerful entity with either Power Cosmic, Mastery of Cosmic Energy or God-Like Powers, or a Mage using Magical Travel (Dream Walking) can enter a dream world created by a person with the power of Dreamscape. Once inside, if they can beat the Dreamscaper's Mental Defense, they too can manipulate the Dream World as if it was their own, their power defeating that of the Dreamscaper. They can also disrupt the Dream World as normal telepaths can, freeing the victim and pushing the Dreamscaper out of his own Dream World. |
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Post by Dionon on May 16, 2009 22:34:17 GMT -5
I honestly resent (slightly) being called a Power Gamer... I am always for the concept over the stone count... I just tend to have very powerful concepts... I can't help the fact that I like Superman and Goku... Or the fact that I think that this power, while should be a limited access thing for Players, would be wonderful for villains, including, as Asmo mentioned, Freddy Kruger, who before this, really couldn't be accurately displayed. I'm not saying that every character should have this power, honestly, if certain players I have in my OWN group came up to me with this, I'd shut them down so fast it would make your head spin... I DO however, have ONE player in my group of friends that I WOULD trust with this power. I've mentioned him before as a bit of a Rules Lawyer, and sometimes a prick, but all around, he'd be the only person I'd trust with a majority of powers that seem gamey... This, Telepathy, MoM, Hexspheres... I'd trust him with all of them. Why? Because I know he has an incredible imagination, and I know he wouldn't abuse the power either. My other players forget about it... They'd take the option where they don't have to spend stones to maintain it, put the BBEG into a mental cage, and let him live out his life as a fluffy pink bunny girl in a field of carrots. In the end, I do know how to play this game, properly, and perfectly aimed towards concept roleplaying. To me, Power Gaming means finding a way to eek every bit of power out of a character, not for concept, but to dominate the game as best you can. I have never, and will never attempt to dominate a game... Oh... and PPPPPPPPPTTTTTTTTT!! |
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Post by Brainstem on May 16, 2009 23:08:17 GMT -5
#1) One of the big arguments is that it's a "fun way to get around stun," but if it's intended for player use, I don't see how trapping and NPC in a dream wold is any more fun than freezing him or her solid.
#2) It doesn't damage which, in my book, should make this more expensive. If you're a hero and you have a power that can take enemies out of combat without causing so much as a scratch, that power is clearly more valuable than some souped up Mastery or Force Blast with the same cost.
Basically, if it's so vital to a character's concept, then it should be something that will take a large chunk of character creation stones away from the player. Sure, Freddy would have this, but it probably wouldn't be at a huge AN (because, let's be real here, his targets were a bunch of teenagers), anyway.
Conceptually it's cool, but it's one of the many House Rules that shows up where I can't just help but think "Why can't it just be settled by taking an Action that already exists and adding Advantages?"
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Post by Dionon on May 16, 2009 23:40:09 GMT -5
I... honestly can't think of any advantages... well... ok... yes I can.... kinda....
Yeah, I can see how Freddy could be worked without Dreamscape....
Take Telepathic Illusions as a power, slap on "Only works in Dreams and "Only Works on Sleeping Targets" and have him be a psionic entity... and yeah I can see...
Damn you logic!
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Post by Stark on May 17, 2009 6:24:03 GMT -5
That's my way of seeing things as well, but as someone who currenty roleplay Alucard in a game and have roleplayed Raya Heavens in a game, I have to agree that I'm at 50% a power gamer. My idea exactly. Why create Fear when you could take Energy Drain, change the name, and take the disadvantages "Must beat Intelligence" and "Target must be able to feel emotions"? Why create Ninja instead of a combined action with most of its advantages? Why create Dance which mostly combines with Social Skills instead of simply taking a higher Social Skills with Dancing speciality? Why create Fireworks instead of taking Force Blast with option "May not use the stones to attack and reabsorb them" (+1)? Because it's not the HERO system and it's fun to have some of the actions already made up without needing to add dozens of advantages and disadvantages to everything. And I still think that a power that leaves an opponent undamaged and ready to continue whatever he was doing prior to being dropped in a Dream World after the character "wakes up" should cost less than one that would leave him several days in an hospital after he wakes up, not less. To me, a power which takes you down for longer is worth much more than a power which takes you down easily vut for way less longer. That's a very similar argument to Wildknight, and I didn't agree with him on that. |
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Post by WildKnight on May 17, 2009 11:09:41 GMT -5
I honestly resent (slightly) being called a Power Gamer... Theres no reason whatsoever for you to resent it. If I thought you were malicious about it, I wouldn't accept you into every one of my games when you apply. To me, power gamers are people who always want to be as powerful as possible, and if you don't see how that relates to you, well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that matter. If I use the word twink, you know I'm insulting you. A twink is a malicious power gamer or min-maxer (or any other problem type player, from drama queens to lobo-badasses, to whatever else) who doesn't care what effect their behavior has on the game, as long as they get to do what they want. In your case I'd say the worst you could be accused of (and the same goes for Asmo) is a potent naive blindness to the effect that the things you want may have on others. And I still think that a power that leaves an opponent undamaged and ready to continue whatever he was doing prior to being dropped in a Dream World after the character "wakes up" should cost less than one that would leave him several days in an hospital after he wakes up, not less. To me, a power which takes you down for longer is worth much more than a power which takes you down easily vut for way less longer. That's a very similar argument to Wildknight, and I didn't agree with him on that. Dude. C'mon. You're smarter than that, which leads me to believe you're playing dumb. We ALL know what happens to the bad guy who is stunned/frozen/in dreamland and can't defend himself. Your team Wolverine or Colossus walks over and cuts them to ribbons. Sorry, but if you really don't see how overpowered this Action is at the price you've given it, I'll eat my hat. |
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Post by Stark on May 17, 2009 23:39:06 GMT -5
It grants one attack to the Wolverine/Colossus of the team, and after the target wakes up. If the target gets wiped out in a single blow because of said Colossus/Wolverine, I think the power of the guy with the claws/metal body is at least half as much responsible as the fact that the victim was sleeping. Besides, if the GM is smart and resourceful, the team's Wolverine or Colossus will have a similar Wolverine/Colossus threat to worry about on the bad guys side, and may not be availabe for taking down the sleeping guy (who's not a threat at the moment anyway) instead of keeping his nemesis from ripping through his teammates. I see that this action is powerful at the price I've given it, but I still don't see it as overpowered. So you can eat half of your hat, or just forget about this action altogether, keep your hat in one piece and avoid a stomach ache. |
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Post by Brainstem on May 17, 2009 23:50:11 GMT -5
But when the other team's Wolverine/Colossus is likely to be the brute that is most susceptible to this kind of attack, I don't think the good guy brute would have to worry all that much. Plus, when an opponent has nothing put into Defense save for some Toughness (as that would be the only reasonable Defense to apply), it isn't difficult at all to land a one-shot.
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Post by Stark on May 17, 2009 23:57:29 GMT -5
You know, we are getting nowhere fast... If the bad guy team has a similar "Mind control/Paralyzer" character, maybe he will too use his powers on the good guys' brick, and then things will be equal once again. Then maybe the bad guys' ranged fighter will shoot down the Dreamscaper, only for the good guys' ranged fighter to snipe their own mind control/paralyzer and then both bricks break out of control... etc... etc... etc.  It's only a bunch of "what ifs", it's not important. I was only saying this to point out that what the rest of the team does isn't supposed to have anything to do with a power's cost, period. |
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Post by Stark on May 18, 2009 1:22:54 GMT -5
But comedy aside, seriously, we simply see what MURPG should be differently. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you see it as a very good if not excellent superhero game in which, with a few changes here and there, you can make fair, enjoyable games where all players are roughly equals. I see MURPG as a game with which I can easily make rules and games based on what I see in many comics, movies, books, stories and stuff. I see it as a way to add rules to good storytelling, and as a nice opportunity to roleplay the heroes I loved from many different sources. However, in those comics/movies/whatever, things aren't fair. Not everybody is equal in power to everyone else, and there are powers which are simply much better than others. Maybe as a GM you don't like the idea that someone might be better to overcome Mental Defense. Maybe you don't like either attacks which "defeat" a foe in a single attack because it stuns/paralyzes/freezes them solid. And it's your right, and it's perfectly well and fine and good... in your games. But the thing is, there are characters who can do it in some movies, books and stuff, and because of that, I have decided to include them in my games. Why? Because I prefer my games to be accurate over fair. Life's not fair, sometimes bad things happen to good people, and there's not always light at the end of the tunnel. Now, if that means to you that I'm an idiotic dumb fool (like the various comments you said in your last posts about my way of interpreting things seem to indicate), well, I guess that's what I am. Sorry to like MURPG for other reasons than yours and sorry to be an idiotic dumb fool who makes you want to eat your hat. -_-' I respect you, your games and the way you GM them, and I don't really like to be told that "if you don't agree with me, either you're playing dumb, think idiotically or are foolish", but I know you didn't mean to insult me when you wrote it (it's still no fun, though... lol). Nevertheless, I won't change my opinion because you think I'm an idiotic dumb fool or not. I love MURPG for being accurate, not fair. If I wanted my players to play in a fair game, I'd run a human-only campaign, either in MURPG with heavy rules restrictions on everyone, no super powers at all. Or I'd run a D&D game with everyone being allowed only to play Fighters with the same Abilities, so that everyone were equals (NOTE: No need to mention that I'm pushing it, I know. I'm 55% kidding here). But that's not how I do things. I prefer for my players to play the characters that they want to play, and adapt to the characters in-game to make the game enjoyable and challenging despite their potential power level, instead of restricting them by saying "you can't do this and that and that, and don't you even think to play as this". I like to be as permissive as possible, as long as it doesn't hurt the game. Now, you're probably going to say that my rules will no doubt hurt the game and all, but I disagree. I've been GMing with the same rules for two years now and never had any problem. Now, I really don't want to discuss this anymore... Like I said, if you don't like it, just forget it and don't take it in your house rules ever. If you like it but think that it's worth way over that, well up the cost and you're good to go. If you just want to convince me that I'm wrong and should see things another way unless I want to be considered an idiotic dumb fool... well, it's a bit late for that, isn't it? Thing is, like I already said, it's useless to discuss it. My statement is simple, it's as follows. Forget anything else we said before, just consider this and forget about what's logic and what's reasonable. My statement is: "Dreamscape is a perfectly acceptable action, and Action Number +2 is a fair cost... FOR MY OWN GAMES. If others don't like it as written, they can change it or ignore it, I don't mind. Thank you very much."That's all there is to it, really. We're wasting time discussing about it, I'm not asking for the general approval of the members of the board for this action, I'm simply posting it for those who want it, end of story. Don't worry, I won't apply as a Dreamscaper in one of your games, WK, I swear. And even if I did, you'd simply not choose me. |
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Post by Neros on May 19, 2009 3:43:21 GMT -5
Its a really neat power.. I like it.. But I think it might be to cheap for what it does.. I think it would generally be up to the scenario.. There are times where it would be very, very useful, and others where it wouldent..
Like, I agree that disabling and opponent like this is very powerful and you are even able to affect him while he is disabled.. But unless its a weak opponent, it wont be a 1 hit kill..
I would however suggest that this power can't be used on the same target x panels after he has recieved damage or something..
Panel 1: Uses power and Wolverine hits the target... Target survives and snaps out of it
Panel 2: Uses power again and wolverine hits the target.. If target survives snaps out of it..
ect, ect, ect...
BUT, if the target also had friends, the scenario would offcourse be completly different..
But as fare as i can see, you can affect multiple targets with this, so if you are facing more than one person, it wouldent be that much of a problem unless more of them had high INT or/and mental defense..
Oh, by the way.. Whats the range of this power? The same as Telepathy?
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Post by Stark on May 19, 2009 7:39:24 GMT -5
All good questions, including one good suggestion. I like the restriction that he cannot affect the same target twice in a row. I think that "Cannot affect a target he has trapped in a Dream World again for X panels after he snaps put of it, where "X" is the number of panels he was trapped in it." is apprpriate. Thanks for the idea, Neros.
About the range of the Power, I wanted to type that days ago but I kept forgetting due to my final exams at school... but yeah, it's based on Telepathy and uses the same range, which would be range: 4.
EDIT: I wrote it as this: "-Range: 4, may spend additional stones in the action to cover for greater range (those stones wouldn't count against overcoming target's Mental Defenses)." It could be farther, but the power wouldn't be as powerful.
I will add this immediately.
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Post by kito on Jan 8, 2012 7:48:42 GMT -5
The only "Big" Problem i see with this power is alto they do wake up after 1 stone of dmg, It is not like they will have any defense any way. once you get them to dream it is over you or your alli can 1shot whoever into a coma. sure u can say ull be fighting a mirro team it not so op. Unless your dream guy hits more then one of there team or if do to its low cost your dremer also get a hi lvl forceblast and tanks them down himself. and wut about when you not fighting the mirror team at the end of the big quest and your not fighting some big "single" villan with gravity power here to attack you hole team. now your hero can rilly shine and put him to sleep unelss every uber boss you guyes face form that point on is metal immune or dream immune forver.
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Post by 77odinson77 on Apr 19, 2015 5:11:44 GMT -5
Mastermind's power had nothing to do with dreams. He created illusions.
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