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Post by takewithfood on Jun 2, 2009 10:02:43 GMT -5
Hey gang,
So, I'm picking away at a fairly comprehensive list of 2.0 rules that I'd like to test in One in a Million, and there's one in particular that I really need a lot of help balancing: that would be the idea of Transform Self as a challenge.
The concept is this: We can all agree that characters whose powers and characteristics change depending on their form (Hulk, Emma Frost, Johnny Storm, Colossus, etc) essentially have a weakness. Weaknesses of character are pretty much the domain of Challenges, and so I'd like to reward Transform Self characters and their kind with free stones. This would even include Powered Armor characters, as the difference between Bruce Banner turning into the Hulk and Tony Stark putting on his powered armor is, at its foundation, just flavour. You'd pay for everything on your CAD normally. If an Action, Ability or Modifier has a slash, such as Strength 3/9, you'd pay only for the higher value; in this case, Colossus would pay for Strength 9. You would then be compensated with free stones based on how much your transformation inconveniences you. It's likely that these free stones should NOT count against any conventional limit on the maximum number of challenge stones you can have.
The trouble is.. what is a transformation worth? While trying to set some benchmarks I considered some of the obvious canon examples, and tried to keep these factors in mind:
- how often is the character going to be transformed? If its pretty much "on" all the time during an adventure, then the compensation should be small.
- is the character giving up anything significant when transforming?
- how disfiguring is the transformation?
- does each transformation have its own personality? If so, this is very inconvenient!
- how hard is it to transform? Does it happen in the blink of an eye, or do you have to slowly don a cumbersome suit of armor?
A couple examples, starting with the easy ones:
Colossus has few real powers until he turns into his metal form. There are basically no limitations on being in his metal form, so in combat he's almost always going to "metaled-up". His transformation is essentially flavour, but it disfigures him, and the additional weight could be troublesome. A clever/cruel GM might also find a way to make a nuisance out of his transformation.
Johnny Storm (though I'm not super familiar with the F4) can manipulate flame all the time, but he needs to flame-on to fly and blast fire, etc. I think, anyway. ^__^ Doesn't he also need oxygen to transform, meaning he can be doused? Like Colossus he'll almost always transform when a fight starts, but there may be conditions when he can't.
Iron Man is physically very vulnerable out of his suit, and as a mechanical device his suit is arguably less reliable than, say, a mutant transformation.
Emma Frost goes from a potent telepath to a brick, and her transformation is often depicted as being reflexive and instantaneous, while Johnny Storm and Colossus seem to take a moment (ie, they spend an action). She's useful in both forms, and her forms complement each-other nicely. However, she's clearly less powerful than a character who has the same powers, but doesn't have to transform, and so she deserves some kind of compensation.
The Hulk is like Emma Frost on crack. Bruce Banner is a brilliant scientist guy, but the Hulk is practically a completely separate character, especially in terms of personality. Plus, his transformation is involuntary! I can't think of any transform-self character who is as inconvenienced.
So, assuming we have a sliding scale of 1 to 10 stones rewarded, depending on how inconvenienced a character is by their requirement to transform in order to access their powers. Where do these characters sit as benchmarks? My first guess is this:
1 white:
2 white: Colossus
3 white: Johnny Storm
4 white: Iron Man
5 white:
6 white: Emma Frost
7 white:
8 white:
9 white:
10 white: Bruce Banner/Hulk
Maybe rather than benchmarks, there should be suggested prices based on some of the criteria I listed above. I'm very undecided. Obviously, a lot of cooperation is needed between players and GMs no matter what.
What do you guys think?
~TWF
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 2, 2009 10:07:55 GMT -5
[space reserved]
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 2, 2009 10:44:45 GMT -5
Here are some ideas off the top of my head for a categorical refund system (rather than a flat benchmark system; though ironically it still requires some benchmarking):
Your refund would be based on three criteria:
A) Disfigurement
no stones - You look the same either way. If you're disfigured in either form, take the Looking Non-Human challenge.
1 stone - You're still essentially recognizable, but your form is obviously different. There may be some small change in size/mass. You can make out Colossus' face, Emma Frost is just a diamond version of herself, Tony Stark can lift his visor to show his face.
2 stones - You're unrecognizable/hideous. Johnny Storm is obscured by flames and his voice changes (at least his speech boxes change!); Wolfsbane looks like a werewolf, or a full-on wolf.
3 stones - Major size/shape change. Hulk, 'nuff said.
B) Function
1 stone - You gain or lose very little when you transform, OR, you'll likely be transformed all the time when there's danger afoot. Colossus and Johnny Storm have little reason to be in their "normal" forms. Wolfsbane has three forms, which afford her some extra versatility.
? stones - You sacrifice some super power(s) for others when you transform, meaning that there are benefits to each form. You'll probably change back and forth throughout an issue. Emma Frost shifts from a telepath to a brick; Bruce Banner is a brilliant scientist in one form, and the friggin' Hulk in his other.
C) Ease of Transformation
0 stones - You transform instantly, without spending an action. Emma Frost turns to diamond in the blink of an eye.
1 stones - It costs you 1 action to transform, but you can do so at will. Colossus, for example.
2 stones - It costs you 1 action to transform, and there may be circumstances that prevent your transformation. Johnny Storm needs oxygen to flame-on.
3 stones - Transforming is cumbersome or time-consuming. Powered Armor characters such as Tony Stark must physically don their suits, and getting out of them can also be tricky; there's also the matter of what to do with the damn thing when you aren't in it.
4 stones - Transforming isn't even voluntary for you! Some external factor determines which form you're in, such as the full moon or your emotional state. People might not like you when you're angry.
D) Personality
0 stones - You're still you, no matter which form you're in. Colossus, Emma Frost, and most transforming characters are this way.
1 stone - You may experience a slightly different emotional state when you transform.
5 stones - Your different forms have their own personalities and goals, and do not share each-other's memories. Good luck with that.
I am in no way married to these prices. One of them is even just a question mark, and there are gaps in other areas, such as "personality". But still, this is an example of what I'm thinking about implementing for Transformation characters.
A major limitation is in the "Function" category. A character like Emma Frost is very useful in either form; however, she DOES give dozens of stones worth of powers when she changes. It's hard to give a set refund for that kind of change. Picture a 20 stone character who trades their weak telepathy for weak toughness and strength. Now picture an 80 stone character who trades their kickass telepathy for kickass toughness and strength. These two characters shouldn't get the same refund, know what I mean?
~TWF
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Post by Neros on Jun 2, 2009 11:39:20 GMT -5
Dam.. I ran over it, and I think this actually will work.. The weaker (more challenging) you're other form is, the more challenge stones you will get.. Only thought so fare, how will multiformed characters be handled? Like Wolfsbane, she has a weak form, a stronger form, and the strongest form? This is one of the things I am looking forward to getting done right.. Transform self characters are quite cool, but so not worth making since they will take up allot of stones.. Thoughts step by step so far until it has been tested: A) This sounds fine since it follows the "looking None Human" challenge, however, looking like yourself and becoming a "monster" could also prove a challenge  Officer: "LOOK!! Its that man who destroyed the appartment block on 8th Avenue, GET HIM!!" B) When powers kinda compensake each other (like with Emma Frost), there is very little challenge involved.. So to begin with, it could have a value of 1 stone.. Also, a third function could also be thrown in there, like when there is almost nothing special about the "normal" form.. A little Close combat, social skills, ect.. A average boring humie.. Such a "function" should give a good potion of challenges, since there will be little he can do and will be rather defenseless... However, in such a case, the GM should be on his guard and make sure that he just can't walk around in his strongest form while shopping and all that.. But i think we need some test CADs and sessions before we can really but a price on function.. C) This sounds good, however about number 4, it might not be voluntary and be triggered by something els, but how big a chance there is meeting the "trigger" should also be factored.. Like do you need kryptonite or is everyday sunlight enough? D) This one sounds good to me.. |
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Post by Stark on Jun 2, 2009 12:23:58 GMT -5
Personally, I prefer to use the following rule (yours is an interesting take, don't get me wrong, but it seems a bit too much trouble to me. Also, I don't see Transform Self as a challenge as much as I see the Transform self of the books as badly written). Just showing it to you guys in the case you haven't seen it already. |
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 2, 2009 13:23:29 GMT -5
I thought of something similar once, Wesker, but here's the problem with that kind of system. Imagine a character that looks like this:
Intelligence 4/4
Strength 7/8
Agility 4/5
Speed 4/5
Durability 6/7
They pay a base price of 3 white stones, and get a -1 CL discount on all four physical abilities. Realistically they're going to spend almost all their actual "adventure" time in their better form. So, in the end, you have a character who's paying for Strength 7, but getting Strength 8. This apparent discount quickly outstrips the penalty of paying 3 white stones.
Deliberately making a character like this is a cheap shot, but it's quite possible.
~TWF
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 2, 2009 13:48:44 GMT -5
Dam.. I ran over it, and I think this actually will work.. The weaker (more challenging) you're other form is, the more challenge stones you will get.. Only thought so fare, how will multiformed characters be handled? Like Wolfsbane, she has a weak form, a stronger form, and the strongest form? Wolfsbane is a neat example, for sure. There isn't a huge difference between her hybrid and red wolf forms, so it isn't a huge challenge, but it's neat to consider multiple CADs. I think if a player wants to play a character like Wolfsbane, s/he and the GM would have to consider how much versatility the player is getting out of having multiple forms. They also need to consider which form the character is going to spend the most time in, and award free stones based primarily on that form. That's how I feel, too! There's a strange paradox in the original rules whereby Transform Self is prohibitively expensive, and yet Powered Armor gives you unnecessary discounts to the point of being easily broken - and yet they're functionally the same thing! Emma Frost is a unique but important example. She's very effective in both forms, and as we've both pointed out, the disparity between her forms (telepath > brick) allows her to be effective in almost every situation, she's clearly less powerful than a hypothetical character who can use telepathy even in super strong/durable/tough diamond form. Since she's essentially using only half her CAD at a time, she should actually be entitled to a very big discount, in my opinion. When I was first thinking about redoing Transform Self I had it in mind that characters who are essentially "normals" when not transformed (such as Colossus) should get the biggest discount. However, I think it was WK who pointed out that it's silly to give someone like Colossus a huge discount because how often is his player going to deliberately walk around being all fleshy and vulnerable? Hardly ever, in practice. It's the characters like Emma Frost who are going to spend roughly equal time in each form that are making the real sacrifice. Colossus' transformation is practically just flavour. And then you have the Hulk, who's disadvantaged even further by having limited control over his transformation! Thus I'm aiming for a system that gives people like Colossus the fewest stones, people like Emma Frost more stones, and people like Bruce Banner the most stones. Yeah, the main disadvantage of an alternate form is that you have a "default". Piotr Rasputin is almost never armored up in day to day life (he even spends most of his training time in "normal" form), but he doesn't seem to get tired or worn out from being metal all the time. There's really nothing stopping him from being metal constantly, other than the fact that he's obviously non-human (ie, Looking Non-Human challenge). This is another reason why he should get a tiny discount. It's hard to come up with a way to force players to ration the amount of time they spend in their "better" form. Keeping track of a hypothetical daily duration is troublesome, since time is so flexible. You could get clever with the restrictions, though: for example, I don't think Wolfsbane can speak in her wolf form. Otherwise, it's just up to good roleplaying. I agree. A big issue is the matter of how many stones a player is working with. For example, imagine a character that is basically like Emma Frost, only built with 20 stones instead of 100+ (or whatever she is; telepathy with all options has to be mega expensive). He has a little bit of telepathy, and can turn into, like, wood or something, to get a little toughness and a little extra strength, let's say, but can't use his telepathy. Proportionately, he's sacrificing the same amount of power as Emma Frost is; however, 5 bonus challenge stones mean a hell of a lot more to him than they do to Emma Frost. This is my main problem with the Function category. I'm thinking there should be a base cost which can be multiplied by some factor relating to your stone count. Our 20 stone wooden telepath character might get only 2 stones for his Function. A 40 stone version might get 4 stones; a 60 stone version might get 6 stones, etc. But this is getting complicated. U_U Yeah, I had trouble hammering out specifics for this, too. That's why I only listed the extremes: 0 stones for Colossus, 5 stones for the Hulk. There aren't enough common canon examples to put in between. An uncommon example is Evangeline Whedon (no relation to Joss, heh). She can transform into a giant, rampaging dragon at will... but the transformation will also happen automatically, against her will, if she touches blood (I think other than her own). I believe she also has trouble reverting back from dragon form to human form. I think I'd give her maybe 4 stones for that. In the end these are all just guidelines anyway. GMs should always encouraged to use this stuff as a baseline, but make a final call based on a gut feeling. ~TWF |
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Post by Neros on Jun 2, 2009 17:15:06 GMT -5
Wolfsbane is a neat example, for sure. There isn't a huge difference between her hybrid and red wolf forms, so it isn't a huge challenge, but it's neat to consider multiple CADs. I think if a player wants to play a character like Wolfsbane, s/he and the GM would have to consider how much versatility the player is getting out of having multiple forms. They also need to consider which form the character is going to spend the most time in, and award free stones based primarily on that form. Well, if I made such a character, I would make the wolf form have higher speed and agility than the hybrid form, so it would be "stronger" in that sense.. Hmm.. Might be a long shot, but what if a character has more than 3 forms? That's how I feel, too! There's a strange paradox in the original rules whereby Transform Self is prohibitively expensive, and yet Powered Armor gives you unnecessary discounts to the point of being easily broken - and yet they're functionally the same thing! Hehe.. Totally agree there.. There are some difference's from a PA and a transform self person, but it can easily be covered with some challenges instead of a whole bunch of discounts.. Emma Frost is a unique but important example. She's very effective in both forms, and as we've both pointed out, the disparity between her forms (telepath > brick) allows her to be effective in almost every situation, she's clearly less powerful than a hypothetical character who can use telepathy even in super strong/durable/tough diamond form. Since she's essentially using only half her CAD at a time, she should actually be entitled to a very big discount, in my opinion. Hmm.. Reminds me of a DnD Class I love playing for the Druid.. Its called a master of many forms.. They arent great warriors (as a focused Figther) or great spellcasters as a wizard or pure druid, but they are very versatile... But the point is, I agree with you that if someone wants to sacrefice power for some versatility, then they should be allowed to.. When I was first thinking about redoing Transform Self I had it in mind that characters who are essentially "normals" when not transformed (such as Colossus) should get the biggest discount. However, I think it was WK who pointed out that it's silly to give someone like Colossus a huge discount because how often is his player going to deliberately walk around being all fleshy and vulnerable? Hardly ever, in practice. It's the characters like Emma Frost who are going to spend roughly equal time in each form that are making the real sacrifice. Colossus' transformation is practically just flavour. Well. I think it will happen often.. Especially when walking among normal fleshy humans doing some shopping.. Its here I would have come up with something like: "But he is so vulnrable in his weak form and gain a discount ect...." But I've had some thoughts about it, and he is just as vulnrable as someone who has bought Force Field 10 and just because he has Force Field 10, dosent mean he has it active where ever he goes.. And then you have the Hulk, who's disadvantaged even further by having limited control over his transformation! Thus I'm aiming for a system that gives people like Colossus the fewest stones, people like Emma Frost more stones, and people like Bruce Banner the most stones. So fare, Im ready to test this.. As i said, transform characters where cool, but I have never ever made one or seen one of my players use it... Yeah, the main disadvantage of an alternate form is that you have a "default". Piotr Rasputin is almost never armored up in day to day life (he even spends most of his training time in "normal" form), but he doesn't seem to get tired or worn out from being metal all the time. There's really nothing stopping him from being metal constantly, other than the fact that he's obviously non-human (ie, Looking Non-Human challenge). This is another reason why he should get a tiny discount. As I mentioned, someone with Colosus's "degree" of transform self is just as "depowered" as someone who has Force Field, Force Blast, ect.. Its there, but its not being used all the time.. It's hard to come up with a way to force players to ration the amount of time they spend in their "better" form. Keeping track of a hypothetical daily duration is troublesome, since time is so flexible. You could get clever with the restrictions, though: for example, I don't think Wolfsbane can speak in her wolf form. What?? Ofcourse she can.. She can speak fluent Wolf I agree. A big issue is the matter of how many stones a player is working with. Isent this always a problem in MURPG?? I sure seem to always be missing 10 or so stones when i make my characters This is my main problem with the Function category. I'm thinking there should be a base cost which can be multiplied by some factor relating to your stone count. Our 20 stone wooden telepath character might get only 2 stones for his Function. A 40 stone version might get 4 stones; a 60 stone version might get 6 stones, etc. But this is getting complicated. U_U Hehe.. Thats true.. There should be something affecting how many stones you currently have.. And Im sure that there is some way to work it out... We just have to get us some really zmart monkies with typewriters.. Or maybe even gorilas  Yeah, I had trouble hammering out specifics for this, too. That's why I only listed the extremes: 0 stones for Colossus, 5 stones for the Hulk. There aren't enough common canon examples to put in between. Hmm.. Lizard has to take a serum.. Vermin needs to become stressed.. Hulk needs to become angry.. Captain marvel needed the Nega Bands at one time.. Colosus needs to... Well... Nothing i guess.. An uncommon example is Evangeline Whedon (no relation to Joss, heh). She can transform into a giant, rampaging dragon at will... but the transformation will also happen automatically, against her will, if she touches blood (I think other than her own). I believe she also has trouble reverting back from dragon form to human form. I think I'd give her maybe 4 stones for that. Uuh.. Nice one.. That definatly sounds like it could be worth a couple stones But it is generally up to the GM to just use the rules in the books as guidelines... However, make sure that you and the players know about this... Ive played with a GM where I don't know how many times I've had to redo a roll or something because he sais: "Oh, I have house ruled that.." Its generally nice to know whats been changed |
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 2, 2009 18:48:54 GMT -5
Yeah, it's the damn Function section that is tripping this up. I think we need more monkeys.
And Wildshape is uber. I'm partial to Nature's Warrior as a PrC though. ^__^
~TWF
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Post by honestiago on Jun 17, 2009 12:51:50 GMT -5
Functionality might be handled by using the AN's of abilities you lose. For example, say in my normal form I'm a genius inventor with Tech 5, Inventing 6, Computers 8. Unfortunately, my other, huge, but blithering idiot form makes these unusuable (all function at '0') then obviously, I should get some sort of discount for that. What about 1 RS for each AN # the power transformation sacrifices? If I lost ALL the above abilities when I basically "hulked out," I'd get a return of 19 RS's (6w, 1r). The same might apply to abilities. If my inventor's INT drops from 8 to 1, maybe I get RS's back for that. As for abilities that get better, I'm already paying for them anyway (paying the higher price).
This would also allow for use of some of the actions potential. For example, say my hulky dude stays pretty smart, but his large frame makes computer usage much more difficult because his fingers are too large to type easily. Or say his frame makes it to where he can't use his lab equipment easily. This might effectively halve all his scores, Tech 2, Inventing 3, Computers 4 - large frame makes work tougher. He'd have some functionality, but fewer stones returned.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 17, 2009 14:01:17 GMT -5
Functionality might be handled by using the AN's of abilities you lose. For example, say in my normal form I'm a genius inventor with Tech 5, Inventing 6, Computers 8. Unfortunately, my other, huge, but blithering idiot form makes these unusuable (all function at '0') then obviously, I should get some sort of discount for that. What about 1 RS for each AN # the power transformation sacrifices? If I lost ALL the above abilities when I basically "hulked out," I'd get a return of 19 RS's (6w, 1r). The same might apply to abilities. If my inventor's INT drops from 8 to 1, maybe I get RS's back for that. As for abilities that get better, I'm already paying for them anyway (paying the higher price). I thought of this once too, but it actually opens the door to a lot of abuse. I thought I was a genius, but when I actually wrote out a few different test CADs, I realized that some people get waaay too much of a discount, and other's don't get enough. Part of the problem is in the way costs are calculated on a curved scale, and how ANs don't take into account the cost of Options or base price. Take for example: Strength 1/6Strength 6 ordinarily costs 4 white. If you subtract 5 red stones, the cost drops down to 2 white 1 red. That's almost half the cost. And let's face it, how long is this guy going to spend in his Str 1 form? Almost never. Also compare: Telepathy 0/2 (with Int bonus and let's say 6 CLs of options) This character goes from having a 15 white power to losing it entirely, and all they save is 2 red. That sorta sucks. The practical side of the issue is that Transform Self can mean vastly different things to different characters. To Colossus it is little more than flavour: He'll always be armored up when he wants to fight. To others it's a utility deal, where each form serves a very different purpose: take Emma Frost, for example - Telepath in one form, front-line tank/bruiser the next. What people pay for their transformation is ultimately about what they're getting out of it, not the difference between some numbers on their CAD. I wish it were that simple, but it isn't. U___U ~TWF |
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Post by honestiago on Jun 17, 2009 14:28:39 GMT -5
In the case of the 1/6 example, there wouldn't be a stone return, because the character loses nothing in the transformation. Now, if he went from 6 to 1, he'd get a 5 RS return. As a GM, though, I'd have to wonder why he'd ever choose to transform into the weaker character form, and wouldn't allow it unless the transformation made sense (maybe he goes from being a bruiser to a raging intellect). But I can see where this could get needlessly complicated.
The simplest thing, really, is to pay for the higher number, as you've suggested (and which I wholeheartedly agree). For actions why not simply have a -2CL disads for "usable in/through other form?" This would dictate a score of '0' for the power. The -1CL could be "reduced power level in other form," which makes the action work at no more than 50%. In the instance above, the TEL character would get a -2 Cost reduction (bringing the TEL score down to 9). We'd just have to make sure there's a reason for the other form, though, so they didn't abuse the privilege.
I'm wondering whether a lot of these transform issues can be handled in this way. For example, putting on/powering up armor="extra time to prepare." All of that might be simpler than granting additional challenge stones (thought I am intrigued by the idea).
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 17, 2009 14:44:38 GMT -5
Trust me, none of these ideas are sufficient on their own. I've tried them all. Transform Self is my biggest nemesis in 2.0, by like 90 kajillion bajillion miles. I think I would rather write 10 unique versions of Phase Shift than write Transform Self. U_U In the case of the 1/6 example, there wouldn't be a stone return, because the character loses nothing in the transformation. Now, if he went from 6 to 1, he'd get a 5 RS return. As a GM, though, I'd have to wonder why he'd ever choose to transform into the weaker character form, and wouldn't allow it unless the transformation made sense (maybe he goes from being a bruiser to a raging intellect). But I can see where this could get needlessly complicated. You have to keep in mind that there isn't necessarily a "weaker form". It's hard to argue whether Emma Frost is stronger or weaker in her Telepathic or diamond form - it all depends on the situation. If she's faced with a big dumb goon, she's better off with Telepathy; if a building is falling on top of her or she's fighting an android, she's better off in diamond form. So there is no difference between 6/1 and 1/6. They're the same thing, just from different starting points. The problem here is that -2 CL is a static discount, which makes it disproportionate to the actual value of an Action. Again, for contrast, try: Force Blast 0/4 vs Phoenix Force 0/10Force Blast is getting a discount worth roughly 50% of it's value (depending on Options). By comparison, Phoenix Force is getting a discount of about 13%. I know those are extreme examples, but there they are. Another comparison: Strength 6/7 vs Strength 6. They cost the same amount. This is obviously bad. It's true that we might be able to avoid some of the abuse by simply spotting it ahead of time and saying "uhm, no" to the player in question, but sometimes the abuse isn't deliberate - sometimes you really do have a good reason to have Strength 6/7 character, and you want a fair price. ~TWF |
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Post by honestiago on Jun 17, 2009 15:31:23 GMT -5
Having multiple fully usable abilities is an asset. Having multiple (sometimes contradictory) abilities that require a state change to access is not an asset. There's, at the very least, a time disadvantage inherent in the change from one form to another, regardless of the resultant actions a character gains/loses. Obviously, if there is no actual inconvenience in the use of a power, there should be no discount (I go from 1 to 6 in Biocomputing, for example). If there is, there should be. After all, we're talking about a complete loss of a power. You can't use it, period. That's a pretty big deal, don't you think? As for static discounts, I offer the disad example because it is simple, and a method which which players are already familiar. There will always be inherent disproportions. If you're looking for a method that covers every single instance fairly, it's not going to happen. I am absolutely certain that no matter what you come up with, you yourself will find an exceptional or imbalance later on. I think you have to determine what you have and what works. That said, I'm just tossing out ideas, so I can't say what works, either.  Couple other things. Between 1/6, 6/1 STR, there IS a weaker form. It's STR 1. There is a definite advantage in having a STR 6. Your example of Emma Frost presupposes the transformed Character has a balancing, perhaps diametrically opposed ability that compensates for the lost one. Certainly Emma does, but maybe the brute character I make doesn't. Therefore, I think you have to take each action on a case-by-case basis. A higher number is always better than a lower number. There IS a difference between picking up a twig, and picking up a helicopter. Besides, even Emma has to transform. And if she's facing a mixed group of abilities, it might be hard to decide between brute force and use of the mind. Agreed, but I can't think of a simpler way to address it within the rules. Further, I think we have to remember that, in one of the character's forms, the power is completely unusable. This is an obvious disadvantage. I think maybe I see it as a bigger disadvantage than you do. Yes, those are extreme examples (and why is Phoenix Force even in the rulebook, anyway). That said, I would (again) stipulate that complete loss of a power (action) due to a transformation completely justifies a decrease in purchase cost. I still think a -2CL is justified, if the alternate form is a '0?' The original rule of reduction (no more than 50%) should still apply, however. Maybe this will circumvent some imbalances. I've conceded the point already on abilities, and will do so again. You pay for the higher #, regardless of the form. That said, I still think you can do something with AN's using disads. A power that is unusable in one form is still a disad. You keep coming back to Emma Frost. Sure she can either brick you or mind-f*** you. But she has to change forms to do it. That's a disadvantage, unless the state change is instantaneous within the bounds of a single panel. I guess what I'm saying is maybe to throw out Functionality on your disad chart, let the players decide on a case-by-case basis how functional their Actions are, then give them a cost reduction in situations involving a disad. See, I'm thinking, if you are give me a pool of extra stones, then what is my motivation to pick and choose powers that function differently in different forms? Either I need a stone return to the disad pool for a reduced number to specific actions (or no number at all), or I need a CL reduction in the Action cost. Maybe the way to do it is a stone reward to the disad pool based on reduced or negative function. Reduced=50% or less. Negative function=action functions at a zero. Give two rs'sfor each that zero functionality on the other side of the transformation, and 1 rs if it's 50%. It would be a small pool of bonus stones, unless the transformation is SEVERE -- like 6 of my 8 actions drop to zero (12 RS's=4WS bonus). I think this has to be based only on the transformation from the Base form (form #1) to form #2, so people can't play bounce back against the two forms. And, yes, this really is a pain in the a**. |
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 17, 2009 16:05:14 GMT -5
At this point I think we have to talk about a few canon examples.
Colossus ("little CAD > big CAD" type) is a great one. He only improves when he armors up, but it's still implied that he takes a little time to do so (I'd say one Action, no cost in energy) and he doesn't just walk around armored up all the time (this may be because of his change in appearance). There may be certain times when he's unable to change or he's simply caught off guard and attacked while in his "human" form.
Whatever discount Colossus gets, it should be small. He should get something, though, as there are times when he can be disadvantaged for being in the wrong form.
Emma Frost ("either-or" type). I know I keep bringing her up, but she's an example of someone who sacrifices some power one way or the other. In terms of raw stone count, I think she's giving up the most when she ditches her Telepathy (if only because she's commonly portrayed as having ALL telepathy options, which is kinda nuts with an AN of 8).
She's the hardest to figure out, in my opinion. Part of the problem is that her Telepathy is unrealistically expensive - perhaps this makes her a bad example. Most of my experience in playing has been with characters at the 20+10 to 50+10 range, with the majority of them being either 30 or 40+10. Frost's CAD must cost closer to 80-100 stones on a ballpark estimate (depending on how many options you consider to be "all options"), and I'm having trouble extrapolating what that kind of power is really worth.
I think those are the two different types; maybe they need their own own individual rules. Even so, it's very hard to come up with a scheme that is fair to everyone.
Man I hate this rule. lol
~TWF
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