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Post by Gris on Jul 21, 2019 4:48:06 GMT -5
May 1 2020 release date, apparently set after Civil War. Besides Johansson we'll have Florence Pugh as Yelena (probably Belova, I guess) and David Harbour as Alexei Shostakov/Red Guardian.
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Post by Savant on Jul 21, 2019 14:06:25 GMT -5
Wait...AFTER Civil War?
Wasn't this supposed to be an origin story for Nat?
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Post by takewithfood on Jul 21, 2019 19:30:06 GMT -5
Wait...AFTER Civil War? Wasn't this supposed to be an origin story for Nat? Seems likely it will involve flashbacks. Possibly a passing of the torch?
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Post by Savant on Jul 21, 2019 19:58:43 GMT -5
Ah, well that would make better sense I suppose.
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Post by takewithfood on Dec 3, 2019 8:53:01 GMT -5
And we have a teaser trailer!
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Post by mcr on Dec 3, 2019 11:33:01 GMT -5
Given how Endgame played out I'm not sure why they're doing this *now* (I get production hell, but it seems like they could have made much greater efforts to get this done before Endgame). I'm on the slightly pessimistic side, plus unless Captain America gets double billing I'm not seeing how this will get much traction beyond film one. I'm sort of the same way with Black Panther, Captain Marvel, and Doctor Strange - they just don't feel emotionally connected to the core Avengers team, and without Cap, I don't see how Nat would fare much better. Good for a stand-alone film, maybe even part of its own franchise, but trying to tie it into the MCU and the Avengers just seems like money grabbing. I could maybe see it if Sam Wilson gets featured heavily as sort of a prelude to him taking over the shield. But still........
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Post by takewithfood on Dec 3, 2019 12:13:17 GMT -5
It is definitely a stand-alone, as this mostly takes place in the past. If anything it will set up a replacement Black Widow, the way the name has been used by multiple people in the comics.
Functionally, it's meant to tide MCU fans over until Phase 4 kicks off. Throughout the Infinity War Saga (the first 3 phases of the MCU) Marvel/Disney was rolling out films on top of each other with overlapping production schedules so that they could continue to release 2-3 per year. That's an unprecedented pace for a franchise/series, and it's only fair that they needed a bit of a break after Endgame. I think this might also have something to do with tying up contract stuff.
The MCU is going to be different after Endgame, as it should. It's natural for people who liked the first 3 phases to want more of the same, but that shouldn't be confused for not wanting something new. Imagine if we never stopped making Green Hornet, Dick Tracy, and The Shadow comics and nothing new; no X-Men, no Spiderman, no Avengers, nothing. Imagine if George Lucas got to make the Flash Gordon movie he wanted and never created Star Wars instead. I'm not asking anyone to love something they haven't even seen yet, but just give new a chance.
Aside from the big cast changes, the format of MCU films has evolved significantly. We're way beyond the days of individual franchises linked only by occasional Avengers movies; everything is crossovers now. All the crossover films (Civil War, Ragnarok, Homecoming) have been big hits, and Marvel knows it. Marvel has built up a big cast in a big world and now they just plan to tell stories in it. They'll still have names like "Doctor Strange", but they'll feature a bunch of MCU characters.
We lost Iron Man, Captain America, Black Widow, and Vision (?). We still have Thor, Hulk, the Guardians of the Galaxy, Hawkeye, Nick Fury, Captain Marvel, Black Panther, Scarlet Witch, Falcon, Bucky, Dr. Strange, War Machine, at least a little Spider Man, and a buttload of supporting characters. We're also getting a ton of new toys in the immediate future, and the potential for a proper swing at the Fantastic Four and the X-Men. After the success of The Mandalorian, I'm cautiously optimistic about the TV shows, too.
I expect that a lot of things will make sense after Eternals, which is looking like the key to the next couple phases. Meanwhile, I'm just going to enjoy a Black Widow movie for what it is.
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Post by Gris on Dec 4, 2019 6:15:21 GMT -5
It's still soon to say, but it doesn't look like a "we had to do it so lets do it as cheap as possible" movie and I like the cast. I'm not enjoying a lot the subdued look of the Taskmaster (although I know that his usual costume would be extra goofy on screen), but other than that it seems a perfectly enjoyable action flick.
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Post by takewithfood on Jul 11, 2021 1:03:32 GMT -5
Can't believe I finally got to see this thing. It was fine, I enjoyed it. In a little more detail: I think the easiest comparison is Winter Soldier, as they're very similar movies: Spy thrillers involving ghosts from the main character's past. Winter Soldier still feels like the stronger entry though, probably because Cap was more developed even after just one starring role than Black Widow has been across a half dozen guest appearances. This film has a lot more backstory/groundwork to lay down, and the movie feels a little burdened by it at times.
Scarlett Johansson was great (I think she's simultaneously over and underrated as an actress) but the stand-out to me was Florence Pugh as Yelena Belova. She dripped with presence, while also coming across as incredibly human and realistic (for a brainwashed Russian assassin, anyway). If she really is taking up the Black Widow mantle going forward, I think it's in very good hands.
I loved the first act, felt the second act got a little too bogged down around the dinner table and therabouts, and the finale suffered from the usual superhero blockbusteritis: over-the-top fight scenes that conclude with absolutely no surprises. Knowing Natasha's fate ahead of time, and being confident that Yelena was going to make it out too, left me only really worried about Alexei and Melina - both rather unsympathetic characters.
The Taskmaster "reveal" was a disappointment. I don't like the way prequels tend to make a huge fuss about what was ultimately a minor detail or throw-away line from the beloved original film. Star Wars's "Solo" film went out of it's way to explain how Han met Chewbacca, got his name, blaster, vest, and the Millennium Falcon, and completed the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs in the space of like one weekend. Similarly, but to a lesser extent, Black Widow attempts to explain Loki's reference to Dreykov's Daughter, and the popular joke about Budapest in the same breath, neither of which were at all necessary.
One last, very minor nitpick: Why did Alexei and Melina both have Russian accents for most of the film? They were sleeper agents living in Ohio for three years with perfect accents... I guess they just wanted to play up the Russian angle.
About the post-credits scene: Looks like we're headed for a Dark Avengers storyline? We have US Agent and now the new Black Widow working for Valentina. Who else, I wonder?
Anyway, it was a good enough entry. Not great, but not bad.
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Post by Gris on Jul 11, 2021 5:07:19 GMT -5
In general I agree but my takeaway was in general more positive. It could be due to hitting a theater for the first time since the disappointing (no surprise) Godzilla vs Kong, so that has to influence me for sure. Details time:
Yeah, I was itching to see Florence after Midsommar and she certainly didn't disappoint. Even if it was played for laughs most of the time, I did enjoy Alexei too as a broken monster out of time that didn't even get the worthy rival he wanted and got ditched by his own people, but once again it was thanks to the actor more than the script. About the post credits, it could go for a merge between Dark Avengers and Thunderbolts, but given Zemo's disdain for superhumans that would be a tough sell. Yelena is appearing in the Hawkeye series but even if its main inspiration seems to be the Fraction/Aja/Hollingsworth run, the imdb credits also feature Maya López/Echo, so it will veer into the deaf angle pretty hard in a different way from the comic, so we'll see.
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Post by takewithfood on Jul 11, 2021 14:11:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I watched it on my computer, which I'm sure hurt my impression of it at least a little. It's the first MCU film I didn't get to see with the full theater experience. I'm also very hard in my reviews in general. I'd put this in the same tier as Black Panther, for example. I really like David Harbour, so I loved him as Red Guardian. I just though the accent thing was weird. lol
I'm pumped for the Hawkeye series, but with everything that we know is going on in it, I'm worried that it will feel cramped or rushed. I adore Renner's Hawkeye, Kate Bishop is my favourite Young Avenger, and the Fraction/Aja/Hollingsworth run is one of my favourite comic series ever, so it's REALLY hard to keep my expectations low.
I really want to see Pugh and Renner play off each other.
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Post by Gris on Jul 11, 2021 14:18:43 GMT -5
Understandable. I did like what Black Panther tried, not as much what it managed to do. Overall I probably enjoyed this one more, even if it was less ambitious. Yeah, I don't know how they will manage. It will be weird enough considering that this Clint is a family man, so I don't know how it will fit, but I guess Yelena can fill several female character shoes on the original comic. If they ditched Barney Barton maybe Echo kinda subs for him (and probably inherits the whole Ronin shtick)
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Post by mcr on Jul 13, 2021 21:33:37 GMT -5
Just saw it today. So hard to judge on its own merits knowing that this is set before Endgame and knowing what happens in that movie. If this had just been a ScarJo action film with no ties to the MCU it might have got a different reaction from me.
Like you guys, I loved Harbour and Pugh and they definitely carried the film. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I'm not exactly excited about the run of MCU projects following Loki, and this entry doesn't exactly inspire hope.
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Post by Dhark on Jul 14, 2021 14:36:58 GMT -5
My biggest issue with this movie?
It wasn’t Red Sparrow. Not even close.
Red Sparrow beat MCU to the punch, by years, and did it very well. They set a bar, and I think the MCU writers were at a loss how to recover from their source material for Black Widow already being used.
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Post by takewithfood on Jul 14, 2021 19:47:28 GMT -5
Yeah, they were in a very difficult position with the Black Widow movie:
- They couldn't do an extended piece on Natasha's childhood because this is a Scarlett Johansson film, not a Natasha Romanov film. - They couldn't do anything AFTER Endgame for obvious reasons. - Similarly, they couldn't do anything that drastically changed or developed her character because she appeared to be essentially the same (except with blonde hair) from one film to the next. - It would be difficult to involve any established MCU villains in the plot (most of them are either already dead, or accounted for afterwards). - They are essentially obligated to share screen time with Florence Pugh to develop her replacement in the MCU.
That makes for a cramped design space, and a very boring character arc for our heroine. As collaborative roleplayers, I think we all know what it's like trying to carve out a storyline for ourselves in a world we don't completely control. It isn't easy, and I think given the circumstances they did a good job. That doesn't mean the movie as a whole is good, but they did well considering.
That final note is the most important, I think: Ultimately people are going to watch this movie because they already like Black Widow. There is no need for the film to make us like her any more, since they will no longer be selling her as a product. So aside from cashing in on Natasha/ScarJo's popularity, their real goal is to make us love the new shiny, which is Yelena. And I think they hit that out of the park. Even as cynical as I am about it, I wholeheartedly love her.
If I could change one thing about the movie, it would be to have made it somewhere between 2013 and 2015 at the latest. She deserved a solo film that developed her as a character, but I'll take what I can get.
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