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Post by piratespice on Jul 31, 2003 21:02:39 GMT -5
This is a "skill package" style Action, in line with the thinking behind Ninja. I wanted to experiment with such Actions and Cop seemed like a viable profession worth creating.
COP Cost Level = Action Number + 3 Levels
Description Many heroes are actual officers of the law, or at least are very familiar with the techniques used by law enforcement. Cop can be used as either Close or Ranged Combat (for appropriate techniques and weapons), and includes aspects of Thievery and Social Skills, as well. Includes an Ability Bonus and Weapon Modifier. Cop is a general Action, but you may add one Specialty per increase in Action Number.
Specialties (feel free to make up your own) Handgun (2x Damage) • Shotgun (2x Damage) Billy Club • Takedowns • Grappling Law • Stakeout • Interrogation • Profiling Streetwise • Shadowing • Search • Negotiation Authority Figure • Breaking & Entering
Comments This Action has obvious value, both as a means of enforcing the law, and getting around it.
Rules for Action Box: • (Insert Ability) Bonus or Weapon Modifier • Close or Ranged Combat • Split stones for multiple targets • (Insert Specialties)
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Post by psistrike on Jul 31, 2003 21:13:47 GMT -5
This is a really good Action.I would love to see more package Action like this in the future.Nicely done. ;D
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Post by ozbot on Aug 2, 2003 14:29:10 GMT -5
I'm not a big fan of packaged Actions. (Which is funny to say since I've converted a lot of martial arts types such as Shang-Chi with Ninja.) But what is the benefit to having everything in one Action, except for the inital cost-cutting of "buying in bulk" during character generation? You could simply have seperate Close Combat and Ranged Combat actions, each with the unique specialties you've described. Moreover, you could have different values in each to reflect a more 3 dimensional character. (Is your cop a more street-beat cop or SWAT-style sharpshooter?) You could still have a Cop Action to describe non-combat things, such as the interrogation and profiling specialties, making it the opposite of the Theiving Action, naturally. The Social Skills can reflect Streetwise and Authority Figure specialties you've suggested.
I just think it might be a slippery slope to begin to make packages of all kinds when the existing actions work nicely.
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Post by piratespice on Aug 2, 2003 15:14:15 GMT -5
There are several good reasons for packaged Actions, as Ninja demonstrates. Besides the cost-cutting you mentioned, the primary reason is that you've only got nine Actions. It would require about four different Actions to represent what Cop does...that's almost half of your available Actions. By all means, if you want a more well-rounded character, grab the others. But what if I want a police-based character that is trained with a billy club, handgun, and shotgun, but not swords, crossbows, and throwing knives? In such a case, an Action like Cop is much more valuable than buying Close and Ranged Combat. Specialties can be used to define the style of cop. A SWAT sniper would have specialties in things like Sniper Rifle or Hiding. Whereas a beat cop would have specialties like Handgun, Streetwise, Profiling, and Billy Club.
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Post by ozbot on Aug 2, 2003 22:48:54 GMT -5
We might have to agree to disagree, I suppose. I still think it's a bad precedent to set.
You said that it would help keep Action boxes open since there's only 9. All the cop stuff you want as specialties should be specialties of Close Combat, Ranged Combat, Hunting/Tracking, Vehicle Operation, Black Ops, and Social Skills. That's 6 Actions, so there's still room for super-powered combos. For example, play a Mastery of Energy, with Flight and Force Field, to bring your total to 9. That's a pretty complete character, and you haven't even touched your Modifiers or Equipment!
Which brings us back to cost-cutting. The benefit of package deals is that it allows you to do more with only one Action-- without having to purchase all of them. I think that's dangerous because then the game can become unbalanced. You are buying 6 Actions (only one of which, Black Ops, is costing AN+1) for the price of AN+3. The extra stones will probably be spent on more Actions, probably all Super Actions, making your character more powerful at the beginning of the game, then your respective buddies.
I say, if you create more than 9 Actions anyway, then you are spreading out your character concept too thin. Take, for example, Ninja. Why not make Wolverine have Ninja? After all, he's been established as having years of Ninja/Samurai training. But he doesn't . He has Close Combat, Ranged Combat, Hunting/Tracking, Black Ops, and Social Skills that reflect Ninja-type stuff. He might have Ninja skills in his history, but it's not his Main Shtick. The high cost of Ninja, in a way, forces it to become your character's Concept. So you WANT your character to have Cop be his main concept. Okay. Shrug. Then when you distribute stones among 6 cop-style Actions, that IS what you will have. Or spend less stones on your other powers. Or have your GM allow higher stone costs to reflect a hero with more Actions.
I'm saying there's probably a reason the game designers didn't make Thief packages, Ranger packages, Scientist packages, and etc. I want to try to work within the system as much as possible.
YMMV, of course!
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Post by psistrike on Aug 2, 2003 23:24:09 GMT -5
Actually I think the reason they didn't put more "package Actions" in the books is because they wish for people to come up with their own Actions,Modifiers,etc. themselves.
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Post by piratespice on Aug 3, 2003 0:56:45 GMT -5
Ozbot,
You bring up excellent points, and let me say I truly enjoy having a civil debate like this with someone whose arguments are as well thought-out as your own. Nonetheless, I must retort.
It is important to note that this is not 6 Actions in one. It is one Action that blends elements of other Actions. It is no different than the fact that one can use Close Combat or Ranged Combat when using a gun within a few feet, or that Hunting/Tracking or Thievery could be used for sneaking about. Many Actions overlap, which is a good thing since Actions are so broad, and one can only take nine of them.
Cop may emcompass Thievery, Close Combat, and Vehicle Operation...but it should not be used for picking a pocket, wielding a broadsword, or driving a tank. While these activities are associated with the aforementioned Actions, they are not Cop-related, and therefore the Cop Action cannot be used to perform them. On the same note (though it is not explicitly forbidden in the Game Guide...an oversight, in my opinion), I would never allow someone to use Ninja to fire an assault rifle. It just isn't part of being a ninja, so the Action shouldn't include that.
Your Wolverine example has a major flaw. Wolverine has no ninja training...never did. Samurai and ninja are drastically different concepts. Even assuming that he did, his skills comes from a wide variety of different sources (living as a wild man in the woods, CIA and Weapon X training, samurai training, being an X-Man, etc.). So broad are his skills that his Actions must reflect the full spectrum of what Close Combat, Ranged Combat, Hunting/Tracking, and Black Ops can provide. A packaged Action like Ninja couldn't give him all of that, because it is (as you pointed out) schtick-driven. Cop is the same way, schtick-driven. So would be any similar package Actions of this type.
I am not in favor of making a package Action for every profession or "class" out there...only those with a strong schtick attached to them that are viable super-hero character choices. You may be right about the "slippery slope" this could create...but I won't slide down it. I am confident that I have a firm enough grasp of what is worthy of being an Action not to fall into that trap. Of course, I can't speak for anyone else that decides to make a "Rat-Catcher" Action...
P.S. By the way...what is "YMMV"?
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Post by ozbot on Aug 3, 2003 22:52:18 GMT -5
YMMV = your mileage may vary
I probably wouldn't mind if the action you described were all non-combat related, leaving Close and Ranged Combat as seperate actions. So there must be something "there" with me.
And after World War II, Wolverine was trained by Ogun, an allegedly immortal ninja who turned villain to tussle with Wolvie in modern years and now exists as a ghost.
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Post by piratespice on Aug 4, 2003 14:10:52 GMT -5
YMMV = your mileage may vary I probably wouldn't mind if the action you described were all non-combat related, leaving Close and Ranged Combat as seperate actions. So there must be something "there" with me. I'll chalk it up to a difference in game preference. It seems I stand corrected. Nonetheless, I stand by my (formerly) hypothetical explanation as to why he doesn't have the Ninja Action.
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Post by beyonder on Aug 26, 2003 20:10:14 GMT -5
Okay, I'm just the new guy here, but my tuppence worth is that I very much like the Cop Action. In point of fact, I created the same thing for my game, but Pirate Spice's version is useful to me since I couldn't seem to come up with any Specialties for some reason. Nice job, Pirate!
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Post by gloom on Mar 15, 2004 15:31:11 GMT -5
I've gotta tell ya, I've wrestled with my oppinion on this. One the one hand I wanted to build a cop character but and a cop action would be cool. But I do have a problem with combining ranged and close combat with this. Perhaps if you make it a general knowledge action that is specialized (my original cop had gen. knowl. with specialties that reflected his cop training) like Computers in the X-men book. I also think that "Cop" as it is is grossly underpriced. Ninja is AN+5. The way I figure it this action is General Knowlege (AN+1) with Close Combat (add another +1), Ranged Combat (add another +1), Social Skills (add yet anothre +1), and Thieving (+1) for a total of AN+5, just like Ninja. You give too much for a AN+3. Just my oppinion. I think I'll put out a "Law Enforcement" action for those who want something a little toned down.
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Post by piratespice on Mar 15, 2004 17:02:37 GMT -5
I also think that "Cop" as it is is grossly underpriced. Ninja is AN+5. The way I figure it this action is General Knowlege (AN+1) with Close Combat (add another +1), Ranged Combat (add another +1), Social Skills (add yet anothre +1), and Thieving (+1) for a total of AN+5, just like Ninja. You give too much for a AN+3. Well, this isn't entirely an accurate depiction of what this provides. Cop gives limited versions of all the Actions you listed. You can't use it to swing a katana (at not least without some serious SitMods)...that's not a cop weapon. Nor could you use it like Thieving to fence goods...but you could use it for breaking and entering, since cops do that all the time. But, to further explain why I priced this the way I did, I'll use the Ninja example. By your rationale, Ninja should cost a helluva lot more than it does. Ninja is Close Combat (+1), Ranged Combat (+1), Concentration (+4), Black Ops (+2), Thieving (+1), and a bonus Weapon Modifier (+5). All in all, Ninja should cost AN + 14. Even if we let the extra Weapon Modifier go (since both Close and Ranged Combat get one), that's still AN + 9. Given this precedent, I think Cop is pretty reasonably priced. Groovy. Such an Action would be a good example of the cerebral side of law enforcement, rather than reflecting the full suite of skills police training provides. Edit: Just fixing some typos.
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Post by sgingell on Oct 30, 2005 14:53:41 GMT -5
AN+3 feels a shade too high for me, but only a shade.
I like the Private Investigator Action personally, at CL=AN I think it's well balanced with other CL=AN actions and covers a well related set of things.
Your Cop action seems to cover a similar class of skills as well as the close combat and ranged combat aspects of being a cop. I'd add +1 CL for each for a total of CL=AN+2.
-Stephen
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Post by piratespice on Nov 1, 2005 15:30:20 GMT -5
AN+3 feels a shade too high for me, but only a shade. I like the Private Investigator Action personally, at CL=AN I think it's well balanced with other CL=AN actions and covers a well related set of things. This Action was originally written before the Private Investigator Action came along. Cop should probably include elements of P.I., too (for that matter, I should have stated that it includes elements of Detecting/Pursuit...an oversight on my part). I had a similar discussion under my Thug Action, and the same arguments apply here. Cop does include a similar skill set to P.I., its true. But, as you pointed out, it also includes the combat Actions, plus elements of Social Skills and Thievery (which, to be fair, are reflected a bit in Private Investigator). We're talking about a blend of five different Actions here. A +3 to CL is a bargain. In my opinion, even P.I. is potentially too cheap, given the broad range of skills it covers. But, ultimately, this is posted mainly to give people ideas. If +3 is too expensive for your games, but you still want to use the Cop Action, make it +2.
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Post by vicsage on Aug 29, 2006 16:43:22 GMT -5
I think the biggest problem with the Cop Action is that it makes every cop the same supercop by having every specialty available, when we all know there are many different, nonoverlapping roles within a police department. SWAT teams aren't detectives or interrogators, snipers aren't negotiators, animal handlers aren't sharpshooters, and so on. I think one should buy the appropriate actions for one's role. I dislike and disallow Ninja for slightly different reasons. A "real" ninja (if they ever existed in the manner portrayed in pop culture) might have all those skills, but I find that every martial artist character opts for Ninja because it's a cheap alternative to thinking about who your character is and what he can and can't do. P.S. I choose to reject all Wolverine "history" that was added post-1985. Wolverine a ninja? Who fought in WW2? It is to laugh.
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