|
Post by soban on Feb 9, 2009 18:14:43 GMT -5
Dio, two words. Too Complex.
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 18:17:53 GMT -5
No way... it's simpler than the Pathagrium Theorum (I spelled that wrong, I know, but most will know what I'm saying)
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 9, 2009 18:18:09 GMT -5
But do you see how that charges high health characters more than low health characters? How is that fair?
EDIT: I don't find it too complex, necessarily. I mean, you only do this once, and it would be very simple to build a chart. I also won't comment on how you just gave a character Dur 3 AND a semi-instant healing factor for a total of 9 white. lol I'm sure cost could be balanced.
~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 18:21:48 GMT -5
Higher level characters should pay more for having the ability to heal much faster... And lower health characters don't have to pay as much, because there isn't as much to heal.
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 9, 2009 18:26:33 GMT -5
I thought you'd say that.
Consider how much health a Dur 2 character is losing when he loses 1 white. Half of his health. Consider how much health a Dur 6 character is losing. 17% of his health.
Yes, low-health characters are going to be knocked out a lot more easily/often, but when they are injured, they REALLY need that HF to stay conscious. High health characters barely need them at all, unless they hardly have any defense.
Imagine a situation where you're the party healer, and both your teammates just took 1 white. One of them has only 1 white left; the other has 5. Who are you going to heal?
I'd say it works out about even. The only reason Healing Factors were based on Dur before was the energy deal. We don't charge people differently for any other defense-based power. Not Ref. Dodge not Toughness not Recon Self, nothing. I don't see why HFs should be any different.
~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 18:30:38 GMT -5
Health Regeneration is tied directly to Health, we can both agree on that.
And, if we're making it part of health, we might as well make it part of the health calculation...
Besides... now you have to mitigate just HOW much you want to heal, and how much that Ultra Enhanced Healing Factor is worth to you.
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 9, 2009 18:40:52 GMT -5
*facepalm*
First of all, I strongly do NOT agree that Health Regeneration should be tied to Health. That is everything I'm saying in my last several posts! Holy crap, dude. lol
Did you read my last post? Because you didn't address a single word of it.
~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 18:52:11 GMT -5
Actually I did... I disagreed with your assessment of my ideas, and deceminated the fact that I believe that because higher health characters have so much more to heal that they should have to pay more to do it.
It's like someone walking into a store.... He has a choice between a normal candy bar, and a king size one. He can't logically make an argument for to pay the same between the two because one has more in it than the other.
The same is true here. The reason I think healing should be tied to health, is because honestly, there's no reason for it not to, for one, and for another, it's a logical place to put it. The costs are significantly cheaper than a normal healing factor (except for... regulare 1w/Hr, which is ironically the same price) so they're actually paying less than they used to.
Wolverine: H:5 X:2 Y1 = 9 stones Wolverine: Accelerated Healing Factor = 12 stones
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 9, 2009 19:14:04 GMT -5
That's where you're wrong, dude. I think they should pay THE SAME AMOUNT. They're healing the same number of stones, so they should pay the same amount. No matter how many white stones you have, you're recovering the same number of stones at the same speed. Costs should be the same too.
Your candybar argument is based on the assumption that high health characters get more than low health characters do out of a healing factor. That's a false assumption, and so the logic is crap.
You say there's no reason for HFs not to be tied to Health. I'm giving you one and you're not getting it.
~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 19:23:41 GMT -5
It's not that I'm not getting it... I disagree with you. Personally I think it should be... AND the example I provided you about an established character proves that my way is actually cheaper than the old way, thus taking away the Energy Regeneration portion of it...
You and I have disagreed since the start on this, and I especially don't think the 1,3,5,7 stone flat fee should be allowed to come to fruition.
Perhaps if we just go back to vjc's idea and make X and Y the total CL and forget about Health, we can work something out.... I'm NOT comfortable with it, but it seems to be the going trend.
Personally I like the way I worked it, and will disagree till the end of this that I'm wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 19:23:47 GMT -5
It's not that I'm not getting it... I disagree with you. Personally I think it should be... AND the example I provided you about an established character proves that my way is actually cheaper than the old way, thus taking away the Energy Regeneration portion of it...
You and I have disagreed since the start on this, and I especially don't think the 1,3,5,7 stone flat fee should be allowed to come to fruition.
Perhaps if we just go back to vjc's idea and make X and Y the total CL and forget about Health, we can work something out.... I'm NOT comfortable with it, but it seems to be the going trend.
Personally I like the way I worked it, and will disagree till the end of this that I'm wrong.
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 9, 2009 19:42:20 GMT -5
It's neat the way you worked it, for sure, but trust me, it's ripping off the high health characters.
We don't charge Wolverine more for his Claws because he has high Close Combat. We don't charge Sinister more for Reconstitute Self because he's got high durability. We don't charge Spiderman more for Reflexive Dodge because he has high agility. I don't see any reason to charge someone more for regenerating health because they have more durability.
No matter how elegant a mechanic might seem, it's a bad mechanic if the reason behind it is flawed. I know we disagree on the logic but I don't see this as a matter of opinion. It's a matter of FACT that every character with Enhanced Healing Factor recovers the same number of health no matter what their durability is. No matter how many stones of health they have, they heal at the same rate.
The ONLY advantage high health characters have over low health characters is that they HAVE MORE HEALTH. And yes, they pay more for that. I think the difference is what's confusing you.
As for a mechanic that allows you to choose not only how often you heal, but how much you heal.. it still seems clunky to me, but I'd like to discuss it more.
~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 20:06:17 GMT -5
It's neat the way you worked it, for sure, but trust me, it's ripping off the high health characters. We don't charge Wolverine more for his Claws because he has high Close Combat. Yes... yes we do! Armor Penetration is DIRECTLY tied to Close Combat. And? Moot point... we don't charge him ANYTHING for it anymore, and technically Yes, we do charge him more now for having a high agility because he had to PAY For that high agility which is 1/2 of the new reflexive dodge I've given you several reasons, including and not limited to "They have more to regenerate" True in a way... but the 2 health character with Enhanced Healing will get MUCH less mileage out of it than say the one with a 7 Health No confusion at all my friend... Take a look up... AND Health and Stamina are still tied together... the more health someone has, the longer they can go without being tired... we didn't take THAT away. We can discuss all night, I think I've actually made my point very clearly with this post...
|
|
|
Post by takewithfood on Feb 9, 2009 21:38:45 GMT -5
Dio, most of those points are strawmen. Armor Pentration is a good call, but it's one exception. You answered "And?" to the Reconstitute Self argument, even though it's arguably the CLOSEST parallel to Healing Factors. How do you not see that?
When I was making the Spiderman argument, I was talking about in comparison to 1.0. It's a silly example on my part, but it made more sense in my head. ^__^
"Because they have more to regenerate" is wrong. It doesn't matter how much they regenerate, they regenerate at the SAME RATE. The advantage of regenerating MORE HP is why HIGHER HP costs more. Healing factors, which always recover the same amount of health no matter what your current HP, should cost the same.
I don't know what you mean by Health and Stamina. Is Stamina a new trait in your 2.0 version?
I do see that we're at a deadlock here, but I just wanted to clarify some things you misinterpreted or dodged. I can't concede to points that don't make sense.
~TWF
|
|
|
Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 21:49:45 GMT -5
I dodged nothing... Reconstitute self has nothing to do with Health in any way in a twist of irony... It doesn't restore White Stones of health, it restores the body to an unmutiliated form...
Don't you remember, Durability measured How much Health you had... How fast y ou regenerate Energy, How Much Energy you had and How long you can go at full steam without being tired.
We've seperated everything from Durability besides Health and The Measure of how long you can sustain physical effort without becoming fatigued....
And, like I said, something you didn't address, was the fact that honestly, a character with 2 Health isn't going to get the mileage out of a Healing Factor that a higher heath character is. It's the truth, and we both know it.
|
|