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Post by WildKnight on Feb 9, 2009 22:59:37 GMT -5
Straight cost = terrible idea, all around. Sorry.
Power improves exponentially. So should cost.
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Post by soban on Feb 9, 2009 23:06:13 GMT -5
mmm, ok what about doing MN+6 for it?
Edit This would make it cost 1 = 18 Blue 2 = 27 Blue 3 = 36 Blue 4 = 45 Blue 5+ = +15 Blue
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 23:09:33 GMT -5
Straight cost = terrible idea, all around. Sorry. Power improves exponentially. So should cost. GAHH!!! Then why are you disagreeing with me?!
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Post by soban on Feb 9, 2009 23:11:04 GMT -5
I think he was responding to me.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 9, 2009 23:14:42 GMT -5
He might have, but my point is the same as he just made, and everyone has disagreed with me so much, that I disguised my almost giving up as a thinly veiled reference to something else.....
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 10, 2009 7:25:18 GMT -5
No, no, no.
I AM disagreeing with Dionon, because I think that the costs of things should increase as the AN gets higher, rather than staying at a flat rate. We went through all this before.
However, I don't think that proves your point about Healing Factors being attached to Durability... all it proves is that you're very stubborn.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 8:20:43 GMT -5
WK, if you're pro set costs for Healing Factors (or some other method not tied to Dur), do you have an opinion on costs? My take is:
x2 Natural Healing Factor: I'm happy obliterating this, but I don't see the harm in leaving it a 1w modifier. Its similar in power to Self Contained Life Form fragments (doesn't breathe, doesn't eat, doesn't sleep, etc).
Healing Factor: The 1/hour variety. I'm happy with about 3 to 4 white. Probably 4 white. I put it on par to slightly better than some of the other 3w modifiers and minor immunities. A lot of heroes don't visibly heal wounds, but take a regular beating withough, you know, dying.
Mind the gap!: There may be a gap between HF and AHF. Jumping from 1 hour to 1 minute is, well, a kinda big jump. We may be able to shove something in at 1/10 minutes. That would get most heroes back on their feet in 30 mins to an hour (ready for a fight not long after), but wouldn't be of any benefit in a fight. Could be useful.
Accelerated: I'm thinking 6 to 7 white. Almost no help in short fights, but it will have you ready for the next battle in minutes. Any more than 6 or 7 white and defensive modifiers and advantages become much more appealing.
Enhanced: I'm kinda stuck on this one. If its too cheap, the step up from Accel to Enhanced will be too tempting and no one will ever take Accelerated. If its too expensive, we're ripping people off.
Instant: I think this should be dissolved and discussed in the context of a new set of Reconstitute Self rules (I'll make a thread later with my ideas). If I had to put a price on it, I'm thinking around 15 white.
In general, I'm wary of systems that let you choose how many health stones you regenerate. It's just bad math not to bring it down to the lowest common denominator: 2 white every 2 panels is 1 white per panel = Enhanced Healing Factor. All HFs we create should be on a measure of 1 white per X period of time.
Thoughts?
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 10, 2009 10:36:40 GMT -5
Honestly? I think all heroes should heal 1w/hour unless the GM judges the wound to be severe for some reason.
Why? Because while I've seen Spidey's arm in a sling and I've read the thought bubbles where he complains about it hurting... I've yet to ever see it actually hinder him to the point where he doesn't go on to win the fight anyway.
For some reason, comic book characters heal unnaturally fast.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 10:44:00 GMT -5
I chalk some of that up to the fact that we're no longer diminishing energy recovery due to wounds. If Spidey's beaten down from 4 white to 2 white, he's still just as ass-kicking - he's just a little closer to tapping out if he takes more punishment.
But I agree to the point where a lot of characters should have standard Healing Factors - not all of them, but many do seem to display this kind of speedy recovery.
As a GM I tend to handwave some healing, and I'm sure others do it to. Frankly, it's what comic book writers do.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 10, 2009 10:48:40 GMT -5
You've got a good point there.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 11:11:26 GMT -5
Actually, I don't know why I forgot (I guess it was a couple days ago) but someone (possibly Soban or Neros?) made the smart suggestion that Healing Factors should be based on cost levels in order to facilitate advantages and disadvantages.
For example, someone might have an Accelerated Healing Factor, but only if they're in contact with salt water. We should allow that.
Now, one way we could do this is by giving them flat cost levels that can then be easily modified. If we want to charge 3 white for a regular Healing Factor, we could instead call it CL5, since CL5 costs 3 white.
If ever we want to charge an uncommon number of stones, such as 7 white, we could call it CL7+1. CL7 costs 6 stones, and plus 1 = 7 white. If you were to put a -2 CL disadvantage on that, it would cost CL5+1 = 4 white. (This is what I do for a lot of modifiers. A character in Last Class has Recon Self Instant with several discounts; I treated it as CL10 and worked my way down.)
x2 Natural Healing = CL 3 (1 white) Healing Factor = CL5 (3 white) Accelerated HF = CL7 (6 white) Enhanced HF = CL 8 (9 white)
Still not married to these numbers (I'm waffling a lot with +/- 1 stones) but whatever. ^_^ +1 CL between Accel and Enhanced doesn't seem like very much, but it's 3 stones. I dread charging more than 9 white for enhanced.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 10, 2009 15:20:43 GMT -5
If you're going to base it on a set CL, which I think is foolhardy, but I'll go with the majority, those look like a good enough separation that would make someone think... I still say that Enhanced should be CL9... it IS healing double Accelerated.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 15:54:38 GMT -5
I did think about CL9 (12 white) but I don't feel it's actually worth twice the cost. I think of the value of Accelerated Healing Factor as being "healed quickly at the end of a fight + some healing during the fight" and Enhanced being "healed quickly at the end of a fight + more healing during the fight" which is only a slight improvement. With these base costs, Enhanced costs 50% more than Accelerated. It feels about right, even though its only +1 CL. We'll have to playtest it.
It may be foolhardy. We'll have to see what sort of disadvantages people will try to pile on to kill the cost (although people did this same thing back when it was DUR + xCL, so I'm not THAT worried).
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 12, 2009 0:51:35 GMT -5
I'm going to run the numbers real quick. 1.0 vs 2.0.
1.0 Dur 5, 9W (27B) Enhanced Healing Factor (DN+5), 15W (45B) -Energy regen x 1.5
Total 24W (72B) H 5/5 HRegen 1W per panel E 15/15 ERegen 7.5R per panel
2.0 Dur 5, 3W (9B) Health Regen Enhanced, 9W (27B) Energy pool 5, 3W (9B) Energy Regen 8, 9W (27B)
Total 24W (72B) H 5/5 HRegen 1W per panel E 15/15 or 25/25? (I'm not sure if we decided on how much energy per point we're getting here) ERegen 8R per panel
It works out pretty much the same mathematically speaking if we're talking durability 5 with enhanced HF. I think the only difference is that characters with low durability that want to buy Enhanced Healing Factor have to pay relatively more in 2.0 than 1.0.
I still think that a level above EHF should exist. Not instant but perhaps healing 2 Health per panel instead of 1 Health. Would this cost CL 9 or CL 10? And if you create another level above that, for 3 health per turn?
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Post by Dionon on Feb 12, 2009 1:15:37 GMT -5
Hey VJC... would you do me a favor, and run the numbers with My HF system?
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