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Post by Dionon on Feb 13, 2009 16:50:13 GMT -5
You said this....
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 13, 2009 17:50:26 GMT -5
Yeah, that just means that this Inventing AN isn't suppose to represent all your stuff. It's okay to also have body armor, for example - that's all I'm saying.
This Action is meant to represent the stuff you have for that issue.. it makes your character more versatile and have a higher total number of inventions, rather than only having the same stuff every day.
~TWF
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 13, 2009 18:44:29 GMT -5
Just making some test cases for my own calculations:
Yeah, there might be a problem with Masterpiece. Maybe only +1 AN is best.
That's not actually so bad. Again, it's just optioned all out to hell. As long as most of the nasty actions are limited by AN, this isn't going to match a proper Telepath.
Sorry, just running the numbers. Ignore me. ^__^
~TWF
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 13, 2009 21:46:34 GMT -5
Inventing is neat and fun... but it really can allow an inventor to over time become the most powerful character in the game, particularly if he invents super weapons and powered armors. IE Tony Stark.
I think one way to slow down inventors is simply charge them LOEs for their inventions. So yes they have stones that they can allot to creating their invention per issue, but to actually create the items, they have to pay with LOE. This way you don't get the 'dual growth' effect that most inventors have. They can keep pumping LOE Into their Invention which gives them more stones, and those additional stones they keep using to pump out even more powerful inventions. At least this way they have to split their LOE between getting better at invention and actually choosing to PRODUCE their inventions.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 13, 2009 21:48:46 GMT -5
NO
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 13, 2009 22:25:03 GMT -5
You'll need to explain a bit better than just no.
And I don't know any GMs that don't see or haven't experienced the 'dual growth' issue with inventors and how inventors quickly become the most powerful characters in the game.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 13, 2009 22:32:04 GMT -5
I don't want this game turning into the wreck of crap the Item Creation system for DnD was.... I will fight that one till I die.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 13, 2009 23:29:56 GMT -5
I don't know what you're talking about Dio. Can you summarize your points in point form? Maybe that would help us understand where you're coming from.
I'm a little confused because you liked the Metamorphosis (a power who's versatility is offset by a high cost) but you hate this version of Inventing (a power who's versatility is offset by a high cost).
Is it JUST that you also want to keep the "improves your CAD" version of Inventing, or is there a problem with this mechanic independently? Or is it both?
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 14, 2009 0:24:21 GMT -5
He wants us to spend our LoE's to invent things (Or at least that was the jist of it...) I despise that method of item creation, and would honestly not play this if that were the case. There's no reason to sacrifice your experiences because you want to build something.
Mr. Fantastic didn't forget his fight with Blastarr from the original FF run... just because he needed a fuckin laser pistol.
Again. NO, NO NIET, NIEN, Never
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 14, 2009 0:39:00 GMT -5
This Action is designed so that you can invent things all the time - it just effectively limits how many of your toys you can bring to the battle with you. I feel it's very important to put a realistic limit on how much Invention gives you. Keeping the variety essentially endless, but the power relative to your Action is crucial to keeping a character balanced and yet still tons of fun.
In the long run (and the long run may not take long, depending on how quickly time passes in a game) someone with the 1.0 Invention will have WAY too much stuff. They'll be more powerful than anyone else on their team. How do you propose to fix that, Dio? Because that absolutely has to go.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 14, 2009 1:49:11 GMT -5
It doesn't have to be sullied with the bastard child of the failed attempt at balance DnD put forth... Seriously... you don't forget what you've done... to create something... Negative, no, never, no way, uh uh...
We can come up with something so much better than that....
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 14, 2009 11:44:56 GMT -5
How do you propose to account for the imbalance between an inventor who comes up with a +6 alien blaster the third issue AND can put LOEs to upgrade his Invention ability by the 4th issue so that he can bring out a +8 blaster a couple issues later while the other characters have totaled 12 LOE in those 4 issues and only get to improve 1 thing in comparison?
Inventing is nice but as it is written in 1.0, it's the ultimate power gamer action because it allows disproportionate growth by the inventor compared to all other character through his powerful items.
The inventor should have to give up SOMETHING to be putting forth these powerful gizmos. Otherwise, over time there is absolutely no balancing factor holding him back from overpowering the game.
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Post by Neros on Feb 14, 2009 12:03:22 GMT -5
I havent played any inventors (and none of my players have had it, although one of them is working toward it), and I can understand what you mean Dio.. Being able to actually invent stuff in Marvel is cool because its simple and it feels right.. Especially compared to DnD.. Im also against the suggestion to spend LoE to get inventions..
But i do also agree with TwF that something has to be done to limit it abit, since a character could create a some rather massive things in a matter of days and thereby become rather poweful in a "short" time..
So fare, I really like the rules you've suggested, but it seems rather wierd that the invention is lost at the end of the issue (or that what i think you meant: "with you get white stones equal to Int + AN each issue to create gadgets; they go away at the end of the issue."
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 14, 2009 12:07:46 GMT -5
*is behind vjcs on that*
Dio, I don't even know the D&D rule you're talking about - I assume it's a 4.0 thing because I can recite about 50 3.5 edition books to you, cover to cover, off by heart, and I have no idea what you're talking about.
Also, my Invention fix doesn't imply at all that you "forget" how to invent something. There's just a limit on how much you can bring each day: inventions run out of power, need repairs or tweaking, or you're using one of its parts in a newer, better device you can't wait to try out on your arch nemesis. Whatever comes to mind. It's actually built so that using an item for the second time is actually cheaper.
~TWF
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 14, 2009 12:10:10 GMT -5
You can have a lab full of a thousand different gadgets if you want - but for the love of anything even remotely resembling game balance, you can't have all of them in play at once. Asking for anything to the contrary is ridiculous.
This Inventing action keeps you supplied with what you want during any given issue. The more you know about what you're up against, the better prepared you'll be.
~TWF
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