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Post by de5pa1r on Feb 16, 2009 11:46:13 GMT -5
TWF wants the old Invention back, only worse!
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 11:49:16 GMT -5
I knew that was coming!
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 16, 2009 13:14:30 GMT -5
My complaint is it's a semi retarded system...
If I paid 10 LoE to up my Technology from a 4 to a 5.... and I have to pay 6 LoE to build that Jetpack I want... by all rights, I've lost the experience needed to sustain that Technology of 5! Who's to say that some GM out there isn't going to abuse this like I've seen abuse of the DnD version...
I've seen GMs force item creators down levels for making items... There's a reason NO ONE in my Roleplaying troope uses item creation feats till EPIC levels.... except Scribe Scroll, and that's for Level 0-1 spells ONLY. I'm not letting that kind of abuse of players come to MURPG... and WK... for the record... it's not that I'm going to take my ball and go home as you put before... it's because I believe in this system too much to have it sullied by that system.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 16, 2009 13:30:03 GMT -5
Dio, I don't know what you're smoking. I'm at least not proposing that it works that way, man. Not at all.
When I say (and I think WK means this too) that you pay for an item with lines, this is what I mean:
Assume we have a player named Bob. Bob wants to buy [insert Action here] for his character at AN, let's go with 3. The GM says he can have that at 10 LOEs per point. That's 30 LOEs total. He saves up 10 LOEs and buys [insert Action here] at AN 1. When he has 10 more he buys AN 2. And so on.
Assume we have another player named Tim. Tim fancies his character as something of an inventor. He wants to invent an item that gives him [insert Action here] at AN 3. The GM says he can have it for 10 LOEs per point. When Tim has saved up 30 LOEs, he gets his invention.
The difference between Tim and Bob, essentially, is that Bob is able to replicate supernatural Actions by way of his Inventing, where as Tim is stuck with natural stuff such as Thieving and Business Skills.
That's what I'm proposing. I think that's what WK is proposing. I don't recall anywhere anyone saying that it would work just like D&D. I have a feeling you imagined that yourself and you believe it to be true because you're afraid it's true. (This is called Wizard's First Rule; google if necessary.)
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 16, 2009 13:34:06 GMT -5
See... THAT I can get behind...
But that's NOT what has been suggested. All that was suggested was "Hey... let's charge Inventors LoE to Invent things..." That's it... And honestly.... I've seen the massive abuse when you need Experience to Create items... it's not pretty, and I won't stand for a DnD system being implimented here..
BUT, I can get behind what you're proposing, and honestly, if I misunderstood vjc's original post, I apologize to him.... Though I will say, that I like the Inventor Pool ALOT better, and would like to see that actually be perfected.
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Post by Reemo on Jun 16, 2009 16:32:49 GMT -5
So i just wanted to throw out there with the horrible idea of using LOE to buy inventions. That if that were the case would said person need Inventing to do that? Would that restrict other characters to only upgrading current actions they have?
because perhaps that inventing character that payed +6 or +5 (whatever its going to be.) for inventing should get some kind of LOE break or multiplyer on their LOE for inventions.
Right now there are a lot of house rules out there that just simply let players buy whole new actions and modifiers with LOE and that to me is Inventing without needing an object or thing. Which means you need not have any inventors at all.
Hope i dont get flamed for this...
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Post by honestiago on Jun 17, 2009 14:50:19 GMT -5
Agree with Reemo. If you're going to use LOE's, then Inventors should get a leg up in this area in some way, especially considering the cost of the action. A simple idea might be an LOE reduction based on Invention AN. Instead of it costing 10 LOE's to get flight, I apply my LOE of 5 and I get it at half. Of course, this means I could have all sorts of devices, so maybe that, too would have to be addressed. For that, maybe we use the inventor's Inventing score as a way to expand beyond the 9-action limit? Say an Inventor can have a # of permanent/unique gadgets in his arsenal equal to his Inventing AN, which allows him to exceed the normal "9 actions per hero" stipulation? Since tech ought to be applied, maybe his Tech Score represents the stone-max a permanent gadget can possess, after creation?
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 17, 2009 15:08:35 GMT -5
My take on it remains this: Having an invention that makes you fly is not much different than having a mutation that makes you fly. In the end, you have a Flight AN and maybe skydiving isn't as fun anymore.
Anyone can buy new Actions as long as they have GM permission. How they actually get these Actions is a matter of flavour. An inventor might invent some rocket boots that he wears; a mutant might suddenly get a secondary mutation that allows him to fly. Whatever. In the end it's the same diff: they pay for Flight in the exact same way.
If there is any difference it is that it is a little easier to justify making up some new goofy invention than it is to have your mutant powers spontaneously change. Secondary mutations are great, but tertiary/quaternary/quinary/etc mutations are a bit silly. Even so, there are characters out there whose powers have changed many times for various reasons, so anything is possible when your GM is having a good day.
~TWF
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Post by Reemo on Jun 17, 2009 15:16:29 GMT -5
But TWF, if that is the case then why would an 'inventor' buy inventing if he is just allow to spend his LOE on his new actions like everyone else. He shouldn't need to buy some lousy power that can't be used because as written is abusive and in the "new system" means nothing.
Hell at AN3 thats 12 stones i can spend on something else right off the bat instead of waiting to use some lines later on in the story.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 17, 2009 15:20:25 GMT -5
Er, maybe I should mention that I totally rewrote Inventing so that it does something totally different. ^__^ My version lets you use a bunch of different gadgets each issue.
~TWF
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Post by Reemo on Jun 17, 2009 15:22:46 GMT -5
I thought that version was shot down? trust me I liked it and want to test it. I love inventing and would honestly try all kinds mentioned to see what works and what is broken to all hell and back.
It just seemed like everyone is on a spend LOE kick right now. So i thought i would throw my 2cents in.
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Post by takewithfood on Jun 17, 2009 15:23:35 GMT -5
It's up in the One in a Million rulebook. ^__^
~TWF
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Post by Neros on Jul 6, 2009 7:53:22 GMT -5
Hmm.. Just thought/noticed something about the example: Example: Forge has an Intelligence of 6 and Invention at AN 7. His Eagle Plaza research facility acts like a +4 Modifier. When he hears that someone has taken over the Danger Room with the X-Men trapped inside, he prepares himself for a rescue operation. Not knowing exactly what he'll need, but anticipating a fight, he decides to go with a mix of power and versatility. He gets 17 white stones to work with, and can replicate an Action with a maximum AN of 7.
First, he creates a weapon. He chooses a Force Blast with an AN of 7. Unsure of what kind of enemy he'll be up against, he spends an extra cost level to give it two different elements: an "ice beam" setting and a "force pulse" setting, just in case. He also gives it the Efficient modifier (+1 CL) and x2 damage (+2 CL), but reduces the range from 4 to 3 (-1 CL) since he reasons he'll probably be indoors and won't need as much range. He's made this sort of energy rifle before, so he doesn't have to apply the Works On Paper trait. The total is 10 cost levels, which uses up 15 white creation stones.
With his remaining 2 white stones he decides to make a teleportation device to get him to the X-Mansion that much faster. The distance to Salem Center from his Eagle Plaza workshop in Dallas is over 1,600 miles - he'll need 6 stones of Teleportation to get there in one hop. Teleportation AN 6 costs CL 8 - far more than he has to spend, but if he can cut that down to CL 4, he can afford it. He applies the Stationary trait for -2 CL as well as the One Shot trait for another -2 CL. This costs him his last 2 white stones.
Forge pulls away a tarp to reveal a large device that only vaguely looks like the assault rifle that inspired it's design, and slaps a freshly charged energy pack into the stock. As he steps onto his teleportation platform and inputs the X-Mansion's coordinates, he can't help but mutter to himself: "They are so going to owe me one for this."
So as fare as I can read, the gun and Teleportation device effectivly works as a force blast and teleportatio, and requires Forge to spend his own Energy to power them... Sounds abit weird that he has to power them himself.. Im not saying its wrong, since it could be explained in allot of ways, but a good deal of things which have been invented have been selfpowered.. So whats the cost for making items which are selfpowered?
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Post by Jet on Jul 6, 2009 11:06:41 GMT -5
Good point. I guess the gun gives a simple weapon modifier instead of force blast (or is forceblast in this system already working like a weapon? just checking), but true with Teleportation device.
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Post by takewithfood on Jul 6, 2009 16:19:04 GMT -5
Heh, yeah, it's a little strange that some things considered to be "equipment" might be powered by the character - pressing a trigger is apparently very strenuous activity for some people (maybe that's why medication always says not to operate heavy machinery?).
The Forge example was written in one go without editing, heh, so I wouldn't put too much stock in it. I am very interested to see what people will come up with as an inventor character, though. If it's your only power and you have energy problems (ie, low energy) then you'll want to invest in some equipment that gives modifiers. If I were playing Forge I'd probably try to build something with an appropriate Modifier as close to equal to the Action's AN as possible (so, Force Blast 4 and Targeting 3, instead of AN 7 - Forge can probably fire that baby all day long, and in some cases this will be cheaper).
I aimed very low with Inventing's power scale for fear of creating monster PCs. I would be very surprised if it turns out to be balanced and functional as-is. It's likely that I'll make changes to it: one change I'm strongly considering is having a free option to swap Intelligence for Wealth - and perhaps an option to add both. (Someone who is super smart but working out of a home laboratory will probably just have Int; someone who is fabulously wealthy and hires his own inventor uses Wealth; Batman and Tony Stark use both.)
~TWF
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