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Post by Dionon on Feb 27, 2009 11:21:52 GMT -5
Unlimited allows you to do ANY feat of creation with your Element... even life... But, just for the record.. Phoenix and Cosmic, as far as I'm concerned are NOT elements that can be bought normally.... At least not without SEVERE GM permission...
As for Create... You create the base form of your element... If it's Plants, you grow plants.. If it's Fire, you create Fire... if it's Ice you create Ice. If it's Magnetism, you create Magnetic Fields... etc.
I think I'm going to include an option to allow the creation of an element when it normally couldn't be created... Maybe +2 more... Yeah that sounds good.. So if you had Mastery of Fire, for +2 you could create it when there is Oxygen... But underwater or in a vaccum you'd be screwed... But for a total of +4, you could fly around on fire in space, create fire in space as you provide your own O2....
Yes, that sounds good. Thank you Prophet for bringing that up.
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Post by prophet224 on Feb 27, 2009 11:49:43 GMT -5
I think I'm going to include an option to allow the creation of an element when it normally couldn't be created... Maybe +2 more... Yeah that sounds good.. So if you had Mastery of Fire, for +2 you could create it when there is Oxygen... But underwater or in a vaccum you'd be screwed... But for a total of +4, you could fly around on fire in space, create fire in space as you provide your own O2.... I don't think I quite follow. With Mastery of Fire, you would have to pay an extra +2 to create it when there is Oxygen, then another +2 to create it where you normally couldn't? The second part I get, but I'm not sure why you would have to pay the extra +2 to create it where there is oxygen. Is that like "Option: Create elemental from nothing +2 CL" otherwise you have to have some other fire (or earth, or a seed...)?
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Post by Dionon on Feb 27, 2009 12:14:54 GMT -5
*sigh* Because +2 is the CL adjustment of my version of Create/Manipulate... what's so freakin hard?
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Post by malice on Feb 27, 2009 12:17:40 GMT -5
*sigh* Because +2 is the CL adjustment of my version of Create/Manipulate... what's so freakin hard? I'd drop it back to +1 given that you're officially limiting it to Barriers and Simple Forms. If it does only what it did in MURPG 1, and it wasn't overpowered and isn't now, then why increase the cost?
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Post by Dionon on Feb 27, 2009 12:43:18 GMT -5
Because... as I've said... half a dozen times now.... It also gives a free -1 CL discount to ANY Ability, Action or Modifier directly tied to the element... Why don't people remember me saying these things? Seriously...
I'm sorry... it's getting very annoying having to repeat myself.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 27, 2009 13:44:58 GMT -5
Well, if its giving a -1 CL to ANYTHING the player can come up with an excuse for, then its too good *shrugs*
At any rate, Unlimited Create/Manipulate DOES NOT let you create life.
The textbook examples of Unlimited Create/Manipulate in Marvel are Sandman and Pyro, who can create pretty much anything out of their given elements and leave it unattended for a period of time (i.e. pay for Duration on the D&R chart...)
NOBODY creates life via a Mastery.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 27, 2009 17:31:46 GMT -5
*sigh* It's a happy medium ok? And it should even out the discrepancies we noticed when reconstructing the current Marvel Masters.
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Post by Neros on Jul 2, 2009 6:04:57 GMT -5
Whats the difference between a Force Blast and Create Element? I want hear what some of you're opinions before I go into a deeper description, cause I think there are some overlapping or something between these two..
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Post by Neros on Jul 2, 2009 8:55:40 GMT -5
Oh, and what does Mastery of Element do if you don't select options?
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Post by regrs on Jul 3, 2009 2:28:01 GMT -5
I guess that Mastery of Elements alone should just allow you to manipulate an existing element, f.e. increase or decrease the strength of fire (if a master of fire) or control the flow of water (if a master of water.)
I suppose that Pyro was like that at the beginning and then gained the unlimited create/manipulate by LoE (since he can only fly while he creates the flaming bird construct which is a working "device" as Unlimited Create/Manipulate mentions)
Now for Forceblast, Pyro could do a forceblast of fire without having Create Element in the beginning but he had to use an existing flame to use it.
Create Element alone shouldn't be considered a forceblast but it can be used for an attack, the trick is that if you create fire to attack something, the fire won't be 2x damage like a normal fire-forceblast would be. So the main differences between the two is that a forceblast can have an advantage while Create Element cannot.
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Post by takewithfood on Jul 3, 2009 15:25:45 GMT -5
A big problem with Masteries is that different characters do very, very different things with them. Storm controls entire weather patterns, Pryo makes giant animals out of fire, and Magneto, well.. yikes.
The task we have in writing a single Action that covers all those bases and more involves quantifying all possibilities and assigning them a relative value. That is friggin' hard.
The best I can do is try to group some stuff into Options:
basic = Manipulate. I think pretty much all Masters can do this, so it shouldn't even be an option, but instead the basic use of the Action. It should allow you to move your element around and shape it into crude forms. If your element has mass (liquid, gas or solid) you can use it a little like a cheap, if somewhat awkward form of telekinesis, or create barriers. If your element is energy-based (light, radiation, fire) you can warp it, focus it, extinguish it, etc; barriers made out of energy damage people and objects that pass through them. I'm thinking Range of 2 by default, but you can pay additional stones of effect for greater range.
If your element is present you can use it as an attack against one target within range (this is inherently weaker than a true force blast). You're always immune to the effects of your own Mastery, but not necessarily your element itself while it is naturally occurring (Pyro, for example, can be hurt by fire that he doesn't control).
+1 CL = Create. You can make your element appear; essentially this allows you to Manipulate even when you can't find any of your element around (shed light in the darkness, gush water out of nowhere, call rocks to the surface, etc). To keep people from creating mountains and lakes, etc, there should be a maximum volume of stuff that you can create and maintain at one time - perhaps equal to your AN on the Area row of the D&R chart (or the weight row?).
+4 CL?? = Unlimited Mastery. You can accomplish complex tasks with your mastery. You can shape your element into precise and intricate shapes, and move it with precision; if your element is energy-based, you can even give it mass, the way Pyro makes animals out of fire. If you can also Create, there is no limit to how much of your element you can create at once.
+1 CL = Immunity. You're immune to your own element, even when you aren't controlling it.
+1 CL = Extraordinary Scope. I'd like to write a guideline that broad scopes such as "heat" are worth more than more specific stuff like "fire". "Weather" is likewise worth more than "wind". Adding Extraordinary Scope is a little like adding an extra element: you could argue that choosing "Weather" is a little like choosing Wind, Water, Cold and Electricity, and thus charge +2 or +3 CL, depending on interpretation.
Most other options don't need to exist. Transform Into Element can be replaced by whatever rules we come up with for Transform Self characters; same deal with Must Exist As Element. Regenerate While In Element should be an option for the Recovery ability.
I actually dislike the idea of giving a discount on force blasts (even though I've suggested it for play in 1:1M). Having a mastery also shouldn't give you a discount on flight, though it should be sufficient to qualify you for the "fits with main power" discount. Frankly, I'd love to get rid of all of the "you get a discount to x" rules.
Does that all make sense?
~TWF
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Post by Jet on Jul 3, 2009 16:15:36 GMT -5
Umm, not everyone can manipulate element. They might create it, but have no control over how it is then. Examples:
Iceman- he creates ice, but never EVER bends it, reshapes or anything like that Human Torch- he can absorb it, create it in different shapes, but once he throws a fireball or bursts a flame, he cant shape it like Pyro. I might be wrong with it, Im no Human Torch expert
Iceman alone is a proof enough though. Also, I can easily imagine someone who can create solid objects, but then do nothing else with them at all (maybe aside from reverting them to nothing, but thats hardly manipulation).
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Post by takewithfood on Jul 3, 2009 17:02:29 GMT -5
Iceman doesn't have a mastery of ice, exactly.. it's more like a mastery of endothermic energy (ie, cold). He just makes ice by freezing liquid water or subliming water vapor already present in the atmosphere. I'm actually not clear if he can directly cool matter other than water, but I'd argue that his basic Mastery allows him to manipulate and shape temperature well enough to create objects out of ice, even though he doesn't control the ice itself. (EDIT: Though maybe it's still easier to just call it "Mastery of Ice".)
I'm no expert on the Human Torch, either, but I gather he can manipulate fire fairly well - just not as well as Pyro (who has the Unlimited option). The wiki at least says that he can shape fire, but, well, that's the wiki, and there may have been points in his career when he couldn't do this (old characters tend to learn new tricks). Johnny also has Immunity, clearly.
EDIT: Even with all that said, I suppose it can't hurt to have a "must create" discount, whereby you can only manipulate while creating.
~TWF
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Post by Neros on Jul 13, 2009 5:22:19 GMT -5
I like making the Manipulation the Standard version of Mastery of Element (cant recall any master of any element who couldent control it)..
But Im not sure what you mean with the "must create" discount thing.. So you can only manipulate the element you are creating??... Example?
Oh, and theres still my question about Force Blasting and creating.. Is there a difference between a Fire Blast of 4 and someone creating fire worth 4 stones?
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Post by takewithfood on Jul 13, 2009 8:42:16 GMT -5
"Must Create" means that you can't manipulate elements that you find lying around. For example, if you have a Mastery of Fire with Must Create, you would be able to produce fire out of nowhere and shape it as you please, but you wouldn't be able to affect fires that started naturally. You can only manipulate what you've just created.
So, if you create some fire by shooting it out of your hands, you can shape it into a barrier or aim it at someone, etc. But if you discover a burning building, you wouldn't be able to put the fire out because you didn't create it.
As for your second question concerning Force Blasting and Masteries used for damage, there are two differences (at least with what I proposed): 1. Force Blasts come with +2 CL worth of advantages for free; Masteries don't 2. Force Blasts come with range 4 by default; Masteries come with range 2 by default; both can pay additional stones for greater range, or can increase range as an Advantage.
Thus Force Blasts are inherently better.
~TWF
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