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Post by Neros on Feb 25, 2009 14:25:55 GMT -5
Aah.. Well, I'm not saying Im not willing to test it.. But I still can't see Create/Manipulate Element as something just as powerful as Shrink or Growth..
But for the "none attack".. Lets lake earth mastery as and example, to create a crack underneath someone, would you need Force Blast to do so? As far as i can see, you wouldent need to have Force Blast to generate crack in the ground..
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Post by malice on Feb 25, 2009 14:40:30 GMT -5
Aah.. Well, I'm not saying Im not willing to test it.. But I still can't see Create/Manipulate Element as something just as powerful as Shrink or Growth.. But for the "none attack".. Lets lake earth mastery as and example, to create a crack underneath someone, would you need Force Blast to do so? As far as i can see, you wouldent need to have Force Blast to generate crack in the ground.. ...you also wouldn't need a force blast to CLOSE that crack when they were half-way into it. I think +2 is a fair price for Create/Manipulate. I didn't think +1 was underpriced before because while I allowed it a pretty massive scope most players weren't creative enough to take advantage of said scope. I feel exactly the same way about Unlimited Create/Manipulate btw (That is: Your increased price is fair, I was also comfortable with the old price, and I think it's an awesome option if used by a creative player) I think Masteries should influence and create modifiers more often (How about they ALWAYS give you defense against your energy type equal to your Mastery AN? Also Mastery of Light with the "immune" option means what?), and I also feel like related actions should get discounts. I'm leaning away from splitting Masteries up especially since the trend is making their options more expensive based on lessons learned in MURPG 1. I have a personal rule of thumb that... options available to players should be nerfed AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE and designers should instead bring other things in line with them.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 15:03:08 GMT -5
But for the "none attack".. Lets lake earth mastery as and example, to create a crack underneath someone, would you need Force Blast to do so? As far as i can see, you wouldent need to have Force Blast to generate crack in the ground.. Okay, and if you allow people to do such things as a 1 for 1 attack (actually, it sounds like ripping a crack in the ground would be much better than ANY 1 for 1 attack, because it should be able to target multiple opponents equally and if you can create a crack, surely you can seal it up with people in it...), then why would ANYONE buy a Force Blast? I don't understand why people can't wrap their minds around the fact that Create/Manipulate may be one of the only clearly written aspects of 1.0 Create/Manipulate lets you CREATE barriers and MANIPULATE the element into simple shapes and forms. Period.
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Post by malice on Feb 25, 2009 15:17:10 GMT -5
I don't see a problem with allowing a Master of Earth to rip the Earth open and swallow their enemies with only the Create/Manipulate option, and probably Accumulate Energy, IF a few things happen first: 1. The enemies are STUPID enough to keep engaging someone with obviously Earth-based powers ON THE GROUND after it starts shaking with the strain of splitting open 2. The Master spends appropriate stones for area and strength (ripping the earth open isn't easy, even if you are its friend). To actually have enough stones would probably require the Accumulate Energy advantage 3. The Master spends appropriate stones to close the hole. To actually have enough stones would probably require the Accumulate Energy advantage 4. The Master accepted that the Earth isn't organic (and therefore doesn't hustle) and moving massive tons of rock and dirt is a slow process, so the attack would take at LEAST two panels
...of course the character COULD just buy a Force Blast, which can be used effectively as an attack every panel they can afford to invest energy in it. Create/Manipulate makes a lot of sense as damaging, especially if the element is already damaging (Wall of Fire that closes on your enemies?), but it's never as direct and as easy as a simple Force Blast.
I also feel a Master of Earth should gain obvious advantage if their enemies are silly enough to fight them amidst their chosen element. It's like fighting a Master of Fire in a burning building, or swimming to meet a Master of Water in battle... it's just not smart.
1 for 1 isn't that good, but a GM who allows for better than 1 for 1 is asking for trouble.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 16:04:31 GMT -5
1 for 1 isn't that good? Its EXACTLY what a Force Blast or Close Combat attack gives you.
For the record, stuff like THIS is exactly why people don't understand Masteries when, in fact, they're one of the very few well-written aspects of MURPG 1 as it exists.
OF COURSE Masteries start getting jumbled if you start allowing players to manipulate the game based on the name of a power rather than the actual description of how its meant to work.
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Post by malice on Feb 25, 2009 16:09:18 GMT -5
1 for 1 isn't that good? Its EXACTLY what a Force Blast or Close Combat attack gives you. Lol, which is exactly why basic Force Blast and un-enhanced Close Combat suck. You've created and/or participated in several threads about it. For the record, stuff like THIS is exactly why people don't understand Masteries when, in fact, they're one of the very few well-written aspects of MURPG 1 as it exists. OF COURSE Masteries start getting jumbled if you start allowing players to manipulate the game based on the name of a power rather than the actual description of how its meant to work. You definitely have a point, and I can even get comfortable agreeing with it.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 25, 2009 17:30:42 GMT -5
Yes, I've participated in numerous discussions along those lines, but my point was never that attacks being 1 for 1 sucks.
My points, to recap...
1) The game has too many defenses, and they're too cheap. You need ridiculous numbers of Modifier stones to penetrate the defenses of your opponents if they're even somewhat well made. Force Field COMPLETELY breaks the situation, as even a very small energy investment makes a character all but unharmable.
2) Force Blast and Close Combat lack "punch" as opposed to other attacks within the game because of weapon modifiers, not because of their 1 for 1 nature.
This isn't remotely a problem in our discussion of Masteries here, because any player with any sense is going to buy a Modifier to combo with his Mastery.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 25, 2009 17:47:40 GMT -5
To Prophet: Peace don't worry, I ain't gonna bite you're head off WK: Trust me, All my version of Create/Manipulate has is what you've proposed... That being said, you have to admit that an Earth Master could, over panels, and spending stones to effect, rip the ground open. A Fire Master could set a building on fire, and a water master could fill a room with water... Those are attacks indirectly, and there is nothing in any description that say s otherwise. In fact, Masteries actually say go for it because it's your mastery, be creative. Also you're un-numbered number 3 in your last post, is why I split masteries up in my proposed system. I'd rather you have a modifier to aspects of your Mastery rather then the entire enchilada.
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Post by prophet224 on Feb 26, 2009 12:04:25 GMT -5
I don't understand why people can't wrap their minds around the fact that Create/Manipulate may be one of the only clearly written aspects of 1.0 Create/Manipulate lets you CREATE barriers and MANIPULATE the element into simple shapes and forms. Period. I'm going to quote some pieces of the book real quick here (pgs 54-55): [glow=white,2,300] Examples of Element Master Effects[/glow]Ice: Condense ice out of air. Can dry the air, chill the area, make things brittle. Fire: Can heat the air, create flame, melt objects, make metals soft ... Vibration: Cause building collapses, earthquakes, avalanches ... [glow=white,2,300] Options:[/glow] ... * Create/Manipulate their element to number of stones spent. This includes Barriers and Object Creation. By object creation, we mean shapes and forms, not working devices. Then they go on to give some examples (it is notable, btw, that the 'example' for 4 of the 7 is "No Object Creation"). So we see that "this includes Barriers and Object Creation", thus they are both subsets of the overall manipulation. Also, the effects examples earlier definitely aren't limited to B&OC but are definitely examples of creating or manipulating. Seems to me that it just depends on the element and the player. Shall we also not assume uncreative players? It should be written with a good +CL, and perhaps there should be an explicit option for 'narrow C/M scope' with a -CL (C/M post-it notes- yay what a power!) Now, if C/M Element is +2 CL (as has been suggested, maybe it's -1 CL for "B&OC Only".
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Post by prophet224 on Feb 26, 2009 12:15:48 GMT -5
Create an Element no matter the Circumstances (Fire underwater or in space, etc) Manipulate that Element to create Barriers and Simple Constructs If you did get creative and "Attack" with your Element.. It would count as an attack, they would just have to put 1 stone into Effect to create the effect "Attack" then it's all attack attempt/damage. So why would it cost a stone to make it an attack? There don't seem to be "attack actions" vs. "non-attack actions", there are just actions used in particular ways. For instance, if I use a force field to put a bubble around someone's head, or over their face or something... isn't that an 'attack'? I could see spending energy to 'target' it or something like that, but just to make it an attack at all? Or say you have the fire guy with C/M and force blast. Sure, he can create fire where somebody is standing, right? It probably doesn't do the flat out damage that his FB does (especially with options like x2) but he could do it, right? I guess I'm just not clear why that would be a problem. Say he created the fire in a group of people and then spread it out... he only has so much energy so the fire would get weaker as it moved, and it's not a blast of raw nasty force, so each person would only get a small portion of the energy he put into it in damage. On another note, it's funny, but I'm sort of playing a character set up this way right now. My DM wanted me to break out FB from C/M. I'll let ya'll know how it works out. Though note that there was no FB discount... breaking it out was kind of the discount.
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 26, 2009 12:21:46 GMT -5
Prophet; you'll notice that where there is something other than Barrier/Object creation, it gives SPECIFICS.
This is not intended to be open to wild player speculation, and the reason that Masteries are such a pain in the butt is that entirely too many players, like you apparently, believe that it is.
Furthermore, in English, when you use the word "includes" and then list two or more possibilities, that can be the entire list. "Includes" in no way implies that there is more to the set than what is listed, unless theres other verbiage to support that, like "but is not limited to."
The reason why doing things like opening giant cracks in the Earth is problematic is because it starts to enter the "cheesy instant-kill" area, way too fast. Lets say that I have Mastery of Earth, so I can dig a hole as deep as my AN on the D&R chart in a single panel. That may SEEM innocuous, given how far characters in MURPG can fall without getting hurt, but what happens to those guys in the hole when I decide to close it with them still inside the next panel.
Cheesy insta-kill. Thats what happens.
For the record, there are abilities that actually SPECIFY the sorts of options you're talking about in their description. Limited Phoenix Force gives the character the power to transmute energy and matter to a limited degree... and it costs AN+13 for the privilege.
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Post by Neros on Feb 26, 2009 13:27:14 GMT -5
*scrattes head*.. I can see what you mean Wildknight.. But as i understood, masters should be able to manipulate their element.... Thats the whole point of buying a mastery.... But... Yea..... Hole.. Ground.... Grave...
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 26, 2009 13:29:34 GMT -5
The word "manipulate" is somewhat misleading. They mean that you can manipulate it by transforming it into simple shapes. Now, if you've got UNLIMITED Create/Manipulate, we're talking a whole other ball game. You wanna rip a hole in the Earth and entomb your enemies? Well rock 'n roll. Theres a reason its one of the most expensive options in the entire game...
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Post by malice on Feb 26, 2009 13:42:39 GMT -5
Cheesey insta-kills are only cheesey if you use them to insta-kill someone. How often do you introduce a plot device that threatens total annihilation? That's all it is. You're not trying to kill your players, you're giving them a challenge to overcome. A big crack in the earth isn't that big a deal. The people who can fly laugh. The people with good acrobatics, agility, or strength, get out and away from it. All that's left is the poor guy in the wheelchair...
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Post by WildKnight on Feb 26, 2009 13:48:18 GMT -5
Except thats not how it works in MURPG.
In MURPG, if I drop you in a great big hole that I can close on my next turn, I CAN cheesy insta-kill you. And its not GMs using this as a plot device I'm worried about. Its players being players.
Never, ever, ever give a player an excuse to feel cheated when something doesn't work the way they want it to, and never forget that players generally don't realize they're ruining the game until its too late.
Its always better to design the game right than to ask players not to use loopholes you left in the rules in the first place.
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