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Post by Ziegander on Jan 16, 2010 20:48:39 GMT -5
Equals win? You never forget anything you see and you can mimic any physical action you see. Potentially free Acrobatics, Close/Ranged Combat, Black Ops, Medical Healing, Hunting/Tracking, Inventing, Technology, Thieving, Vehicle Operation, Ventriloquism, and Climbing - just to name a few!
This forum appears to have delved through all possible permutations of rules situations so I'm sure this has come up. What are the thoughts on this matter?
Discussion of rules as written, house rules, or additional rulesmongering are ALL welcome.
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Post by jeffhazelwood on Jan 16, 2010 20:53:04 GMT -5
Yeah it can even get worst throw in copy ability/action/ modifier even though no sane GM would allow all three on one char
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Post by arch2ngel on Jan 16, 2010 20:57:51 GMT -5
In my games, I don't allow it, citing the difference between Muscle Memory and Visual Memory. If you wanted to describe what you'd seen, you could, but if you've dropped Captain America's fighting style in favor of another physical action, you'd need to see Captain America fight again before you could get your muscles to remember his fighting style.
But that's in my games. To each their own. /shrugs/
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Post by Ziegander on Jan 16, 2010 21:36:38 GMT -5
In my games, I don't allow it, citing the difference between Muscle Memory and Visual Memory. If you wanted to describe what you'd seen, you could, but if you've dropped Captain America's fighting style in favor of another physical action, you'd need to see Captain America fight again before you could get your muscles to remember his fighting style. But that's in my games. To each their own. /shrugs/ Well, that's one interpretation, but I can, perhaps with a little effort, imagine a "superpower" that causes muscular memory to be held indefinitely. Or another that links Visual and Muscular Memory. So the phrase, "It's just like riding a bike" rings true for such a character. If they've seen Cap throw a punch they can throw the same punch. If they DO throw that same punch, just one time, they never forget how to throw that same punch. |
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Post by arch2ngel on Jan 16, 2010 22:17:16 GMT -5
True, but the problem is that it's such an overpowering modifier as it is. "You spent 15 stones to get Close Combat at 10? Well, I watched you fight and now I can do it too! Me? Oh, I spent 12 stones - oh, and I got to copy all these other guys, too! And now, if I have to replace one of these actions that I've copied, I can get it back anytime, so I'm not even limited by what the modifier's rules say about how many I can copy."
So...Photographic Reflexes? Incredibly potent for the cost, but yes, I'd allow it (though I don't let people watch videos to get the action - you HAVE to witness the action in person). But a Muscle Memory version of Photographic Memory to go with it? Nope, I don't think I'd allow that in one of my games.
Again, to each their own. I don't discourage anyone from running their game their way. This is just my view on it.
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Post by jradd7 on Jan 17, 2010 0:15:24 GMT -5
The thing is... a lot of things are a lot more than simply physically copying the motion. Hunting/Tracking... just because you can look like you're tracking doesn't mean the cognition that takes place to actually follow tracks is somehow transfered through watching someone go through the motions, same with ventriloquism (plus, the vocal muscular manipulations that you can't really see going on), Vehicle Operation (What if you watch a person fly a helicopter calm skies and then when you try you run into a storm?), Thieving, Technology, Inventing (building someone else's invention, yes, creatively coming up with something original... duh, no, if you saw it done, it's not creativity), Black Ops, Medical Healing (which can easily be highly dependent on the subject being operated on). So... no, not really. In some specific instances, you may be able to do any of those things (specifically, when ALL the conditions are relatively the same), but likely in most situations doing the same motion is not at all equal to being able to successfully accomplish the goal.
With the original intent for fighting, situations are generally the same, which is the idea behind practicing the muscular movements over and over again. Usually, in the moment, a throat punch will work, even if you have to adjust a small amount for height differences; male/female, race, creed, rain or shine, something with a throat that gets punched will hurt. If someone swings at you with a punch, blocking the same way for most punches, whether they are jabs, hooks, etc, will probably at least deflect the brunt of the damage. A lot of other things take many more mental workings than physical action to navigate properly.
If you take a vague application of the effects of the abilities, sure, you could rule that way. But logically, most of those things don't really work and it shouldn't be allowed unless the situation would allow it.
On the other point, I do think that the memory should work over time, regardless. If you do see someone snatch a purse (which would be relatively the same in any situation), you can do that for the rest of your life, probably, given that combination of abilities. I can understand reasoning to break the memory up over different instances, but it's not the way I'd rule.
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Post by arch2ngel on Jan 17, 2010 0:50:22 GMT -5
That's generally how I rule it as well. If you see someone piloting a craft, you would be able to pilot THAT craft using Photographic Reflexes. (But knowing how to drive a car is VERY different from flying a helicopter, etc.) I would rule that seeing a doctor perform triage in a military camp that came under fire would allow you to do the same, though open heart surgery is probably beyond the scope of this modifier. I hadn't thought about including Inventing at all, but you have a point about being able to create the same thing the guy with Inventing just created, so long as you have access to the same tools and parts...
And, of course, combat actions (ranged and close) would ALWAYS be able to be copied.
Make no mistake: I LOVE the Modifier, and think it's a lot of fun in a campaign (one of the players in my Exiles campaign has it), but I also make sure it doesn't get out of hand, or that character could easily take over the campaign...
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Post by jradd7 on Jan 17, 2010 1:05:01 GMT -5
In my games, I don't allow it, citing the difference between Muscle Memory and Visual Memory. If you wanted to describe what you'd seen, you could, but if you've dropped Captain America's fighting style in favor of another physical action, you'd need to see Captain America fight again before you could get your muscles to remember his fighting style. Do you just mean that the acquisition of new muscular abilities sort of... cleans the slate of anything that was before it? Sort of like... if you learn to play a shooter or flight simulator with inverted Y-axis and then switch, the previous muscle memory messes you up for the new thing but, in yours, the opposite where the newest muscle memory is dominant? Or do you mean, that muscle memory doesn't last over time? Because my understanding is that once you have something in "muscle memory," it's there quite solidly, like Zeigander's "riding the bike" comment (Olympic divers don't forget how to do double gainers when they learn triple front flip, they just lose the ability to score perfect 9's over long hiatus, kinda thing). It's a complicated concept and I totally understand that ruling from a rules perspective. I just like spreading the info on how stuff like memory (and other psychology topics) works and hearing how other people come up with rulings. |
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Post by GhostKnight on Jan 17, 2010 1:05:15 GMT -5
Yeah it can even get worst throw in copy ability/action/ modifier even though no sane GM would allow all three on one char I once did a character with those powers. Shame the campaign didn't last and I thought the power could only copy just one person, not all of the persons in the area. |
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Post by raynorn on Jan 16, 2011 8:29:50 GMT -5
Perhaps not quite as broken as it sounds, most of the skills in the game are overshadowed by powers & it is in line for cost with some major stuff . . .
Consider that 12w 2r stones can buy you 6 stones of mastery of magic, with enough left over for a reflexive dodge of 2 and two red for precognitive flashes and perhaps 1 stone of leadership.
Also
Sure may see a grand master throw around people using CC 15 or something crazy but if you have an energy pool of 12 with a refresh of 4 it doesn't really matter.
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Post by WildKnight on Jan 16, 2011 13:18:30 GMT -5
Pretty much everyone in this conversation also doesn't seem to understand how the Modifier actually works, as well.
For starters, there is NO WAY you can interpret Invention as a "physical action." Second, there are a huge number of limitations inherent to the Action itself. For starters, sure, if I watch Cap and Wolverine fight, I can fight like Cap or Wolvie. But I emphatically CANNOT fight like Cap AND Wolvie. The difference, in game terms, is huge, because Specialties (when used properly), make a world of difference in the game.
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