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Post by WildKnight on Nov 2, 2011 18:28:54 GMT -5
I'm immune to most of the character derailment stuff, as I don't pay much attention to the DCU. And there has been more character development than in most super hero TV shows, and frankly we aren't even through the first season yet. ~TWF I would figuratively die of shock if you could point out a single instance of legitimate character development that didn't involve Red Tornado.
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Post by Beacon on Nov 2, 2011 18:49:01 GMT -5
It strikes me as a deliberate attempt to change things up, and there's a bit too much synergy in some of the choice for it to seem completely random. The Arrow family-Cheshire debacle for instance. It isn’t really random. Comic Cheshire is connected to the Arrow family too but I don’t think they’d let her get knocked up with Speedy’s illegitimate child in a kid’s cartoon. I would figuratively die of shock if you could point out a single instance of legitimate character development that didn't involve Red Tornado. Aqualad, Artemis, and Kid Flash have had loads of character development.
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 2, 2011 18:52:28 GMT -5
Aqualad, Artemis, and Kid Flash have had loads of character development. Um... so, I guess I shouldn't really have to say this, but apparently I do. Revealing somebodies background is not character development. None of those characters have changed significantly since they were introduced, nor have any of them made significant discoveries that might lead to future changes. Explaining why someone is how they are is not character development. It's backstory.
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Post by takewithfood on Nov 2, 2011 19:26:30 GMT -5
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that the character development is great - only that it's better than most TV super hero shows.
Connor has probably had the most development so far. He's less standoffish than he used to be, he trusts his friends more (particularly Megan), and is starting to actually have fun. He even smiles from time to time.
Aqualad has been shown to be pretty stressed in his position as team leader, and he is handling it well in some ways (I'd say he's doing a good job), and poorly in others (he's doubting himself at times, and it seems to be getting to him).
Speedy has begrudgingly developed respect for the team, both in its members, and more importantly, it's legitimacy and purpose. He seems a lot less angry in general, and managed to swallow enough of his pride to ask for help when he was in way over his head.
As a team, they're all working much better together, they have shown progress in their cooperation (they even have obviously practiced moves with little codenames). I found it interesting that Artemis is considered to be so "in the group" that she was able to question Zatana's involvement - only to proclaim that she'd fit right in when she came up with the plan to go off on their own, against orders.
That said, Kid Flash is Kid Flash, and Robin is Robin. But they're shallow, and I'm okay with that. ^__^ Megan is.. poorly written.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 2, 2011 21:23:01 GMT -5
Speedy is the only one of those that I would cede to be an actual, relevant, and meaningful shift in the character.
And I won't be happy till he's shooting up heroine.
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Post by takewithfood on Nov 2, 2011 21:57:58 GMT -5
Hunh. I think Connor is the one who has undergone the biggest, and most obvious changes.
~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 2, 2011 22:01:44 GMT -5
Hunh. I think Connor is the one who has undergone the biggest, and most obvious changes. ~TWF I'm willing to say that I might be dismissive of his "arc" because it was so obvious and cliched that it makes me want to find the writers and drown them in liquid sewage.
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Post by Beacon on Nov 2, 2011 22:44:29 GMT -5
WildKnight, just because you don’t necessarily agree with the direction the character is going doesn’t mean there isn’t character development. It’s for that reason that I have to concede to Takewithfood’s point that Superboy has grown a lot.
TWF was spot-on with Aqualad.
Artemis is still a bit of a mystery but she seems to have gone from a plant (or at least someone who conned her way into the group) to someone who someone who wants to belong in the team to someone who DOES belong on the team. I challenge you to watch the episode where they lose their recent memories and tell me that joining the team hasn’t changed her.
I’m not actually sure that Speedy’s working with the team is character development. He never really had a problem with the YJ kids; he’s frustrated with the Justice League.
Now that I think about it – other than the Dr. Fate episode – I’m not sure that Kid Flash is getting “character development” so much as he’s revealing hidden depths. As with his Justice League Unlimited and comics counterparts, there’s a lot more to Wally than he lets on.
I actually do think Robin has grown but it’s been pretty subtle. Subtle doesn’t seem to play well in this thread so I didn’t mention it.
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 2, 2011 23:04:53 GMT -5
WildKnight, just because you don’t necessarily agree with the direction the character is going doesn’t mean there isn’t character development. It’s for that reason that I have to concede to Takewithfood’s point that Superboy has grown a lot. No, but the fact that it's not character development, means that it's not character development. You're going to say that Superboy has "grown a lot", really? Honestly? Don't you think you're being a little too generous in your defensiveness? "I used to be a jerk because I grew up in a giant glass bottle but now I'm slightly less of a jerk and I kissed a girl one time!" is not "a lot" of growth.
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Post by takewithfood on Nov 2, 2011 23:17:30 GMT -5
I’m not actually sure that Speedy’s working with the team is character development. He never really had a problem with the YJ kids; he’s frustrated with the Justice League. He did insult the YJ kids for being sidekicks and putting up with what he felt was patronizing treatment from their Justice League mentors. It took him a long time, but they eventually earned his respect as a proper team (even though he still prefers to fly solo). I suppose the fact that he's working better with the team, rather than just being on the team is a sign that he's maturing, albeit slowly. He doesn't ninja off in the middle of a fight quite as much anymore, and when he does, he tends to have had a good reason, and promptly returns. He also seems to have quickly gotten over the fact that he isn't team lead, but that development was mostly contained within a single episode. I still can't think of anything for Megan, but I am happy to settle for her simply dropping fewer and fewer "Hello Megan!" bombs. One could argue that she started the show in a pretty well-adjusted state - friendly, open-minded, well-meaning, cooperative, etc - but character development doesn't always have to be positive. I think it's interesting that she doesn't even seem to be much more comfortable with the team, or her role in it, than she did at the beginning of the show. Contrast that with Artemis, who had trouble fitting in initially, and yet is practically "one of the guys" by now. (I think she may also be overtaking Aqualad as my favourite character on the show, owing largely to some of the great comedic lines she's been delivering. ^__^) ~TWF
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 2, 2011 23:28:17 GMT -5
I actually do think Robin has grown but it’s been pretty subtle. Subtle doesn’t seem to play well in this thread so I didn’t mention it. Wait, this is what we've gotten down to? "It's subtle, and you don't get subtle" There is nothing subtle about the writing on this show. It's about as standard issue kiddy fare as I've ever seen. Batman the Brave and the Bold has more subtle elements than Young Justice. I've never seen an episode, but I'm guessing that Yo Gabba Gabba has more subtlety than YJ. Robin has no arc at all. So far, this is what we've seen of Robin; mildly amusing verbal quips, and he's smarter than he lets on. And that's it. You can read all kinds of things into his behavior, but none of that is actually played out on the show, at least not so far. So far, he's almost entirely surface. Robin is far and away the character I should care the most about on this show, and is far and away the one I'm most disappointed in.
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Post by Beacon on Nov 2, 2011 23:54:54 GMT -5
Robin has changed as the series has gone on but we aren’t ever really told why. Maybe it’s because he’s finally learning to trust in the abilities of people who aren’t Batman. Maybe its because he’s become close enough to the rest of the team that he doesn’t feel the need to keep up the act. Maybe it’s because he’s adjusting to being in a situation where he doesn’t have to constantly prove himself (actually the leadership episode pretty much confirms that last one). Its character development no matter how you look at it.
He’s really the character that most needs a spotlight episode…well Artemis would be nice too but I don’t want that unless they’re willing to finally resolve at least some of her dangling plot threads.
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 3, 2011 6:01:57 GMT -5
Its character development no matter how you look at it. Not really, no. Character development requires more than a change in the portrayal of a character, and I don't really see this big change you're talking about anyway. Arguably, he's been written slightly different in everything since the pilot, but that's very common in Television, and doesn't constitute character development.
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Post by Jet on Nov 3, 2011 11:48:33 GMT -5
WK, why do you still argue with us? We're still gonna watch and enjoy this show whether you like it or not. If you're bored, do something that doesnt spoil our fun.
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Post by WildKnight on Nov 3, 2011 12:00:48 GMT -5
WK, why do you still argue with us? We're still gonna watch and enjoy this show whether you like it or not. If you're bored, do something that doesnt spoil our fun. What's sad, to me, is that having someone try to dissect the elements of the show and discuss them without drooling sycophantically all over them, ruins the fun for you. My point is not to dissuade you from enjoying the show. It's to get a grasp of why people like it in the first place.
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