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Post by symeon on May 10, 2005 13:19:22 GMT -5
I've been twinking for 2 days now... trying to come up with a 40 Stone version of Collossus. I'm at my wits end... Trying to go about this in multiple ways. Maybe I'm just picky~ but I'm aiming for excellence here...
My Goal? Creating a Collossus on 40 stones that can go toe to toe with the 'Real Deal' (As printed) without having to sacrifice the power thematic necesseties the guy exemplifies (Impressive Bio-Organic Steel Armor, Str 9, Dur of 5, Ability to take humanoid form).
and I just can't seem to come up with 'acceptable' to me.
I tried the Craptacular Transform Self method they used for the X-Men Guide version of his stats... but as was demonstated there, it just isn't happening in so few stones... I know someone else did the math and came out to the printed version being 73w1r. A good deal more stones than are present in my budget.
Maybe my understanding of how this Modifier works is off... <shrug> It just seems like there should be an easier way to create this guy.
Any ideas/suggestions/been-there-done-thats?
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Post by reff on May 10, 2005 14:20:48 GMT -5
well, if you were to make the bio-steel form his main form, and then his humanoid form his alt form, that would halve the cost of all his stats for bio steel
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Post by sphynx on May 10, 2005 14:34:08 GMT -5
Try it with a Mastery of BioOrganic Steel (Transform Into) and link things to that Mastery. Instead of Toughness, take ForceField automatic when using Mastery.
Mastery of BioOrganic Steel 6 (9 Stones) +1 Transform Into +2 Free Force Field when used (Transformed Into) +1 Magic Included +2 Add Mastery to Strength -2 Can Not Imrpove with Lines of Experience -2 Doesn't Help Friends (You have the Mastery for the Force Field really, and this makes it 'skin tight'.)
16 stones for Abilities (Permanent Durability of 6)
10 stones for Actions
Magical Defense of 3 for 1 stone Mentel Defense of 3 for 1 stone (we just hit 40 stones total)
Energy Defense of 3 Self Contained Life Form (Linked to Mastery/Transform into) for 2.
Wahlah, Colossus for 41 stones
Sphynx
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Post by symeon on May 12, 2005 3:07:27 GMT -5
This WOULD work nicely, I am concerned over the loss of an action to keep the Armor in effect though (which was the motivation behind the thread in General about this) Granted using an Action like Unstoppable as opposed to CC would allow for movement AND attack... I think? Unstoppable as written doesn't seem very clear either
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Post by sphynx on May 12, 2005 3:28:25 GMT -5
You don't need to put stones in speed to move. Movement only costs stones from 5mph+ according to the D&R chart. Sphynx
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Post by sphynx on May 12, 2005 3:30:22 GMT -5
Oh crap, that 9 stones would actually be 13 (25/2 rounds up to 13)
Sphynx
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Post by omniscient on May 12, 2005 3:56:10 GMT -5
Oh crap, that 9 stones would actually be 13 (25/2 rounds up to 13) Sphynx That´s not your only problem, as... there´s no option that allows you to ADD to Stat, only to Substitute which costs +1 CL, now, you could make one up... but the cost would more likely be +3 than +2. -2 limitation of doesn´t benefit other used on mastery is dubious at best... and your colossus would only benefit from free forcefield when USING his mastery [his boosted str]. Ergo... Needs some work. Nice try tho´.
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Post by sphynx on May 12, 2005 4:09:37 GMT -5
Actually...... As is always the way with MuRPG, most of it depends on interpretation. In most online games (and so I'd assume most offline games), the entire purpose of 'Transform Into' is to allow for a -1 reduction (Linked to) BECAUSE Masteries encourage -1 for thematic ideas. However, all he has to do is keep a red stone in the Mastery, he doesn't need to use Strength to benefit. If he keeps a stone in the Mastery, even for no reason at all (such as 'defense'), it counts as one of his actions, so the ForceField at full AN is free. As for the +2 to 'add a stat', that is legal through various ways. Avengers Book lets you 'add' to an Ability via a +3 option (Appendix D). Limiting it to Transform Into would be +2. Or, if you prefer, you could look at Shrinking, +1 so every 2 levels of the Action adds to Strength. Costing +2 for 'every level' to add is fair. Don't forget that the Actions and Modifiers in the book are listed as: Examples, so it's encouraged to manipulate the powers a bit to get what you want from it. -2 limitation to 'doesn't help friends' is as fair here as anywhere. However, since he'd have to pay 13 anyhow, giving it a -1 would keep it at the same overall costs. Sphynx
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Post by omniscient on May 12, 2005 4:25:18 GMT -5
Actually...... As is always the way with MuRPG, most of it depends on interpretation. In most online games (and so I'd assume most offline games), the entire purpose of 'Transform Into' is to allow for a -1 reduction (Linked to) BECAUSE Masteries encourage -1 for thematic ideas. However, all he has to do is keep a red stone in the Mastery, he doesn't need to use Strength to benefit. If he keeps a stone in the Mastery, even for no reason at all (such as 'defense'), it counts as one of his actions, so the ForceField at full AN is free. on free FF, True. on -1, the lower cost is meant of other actions & Modifiers, NOT options. you´re now paying less for your mastery, bacause of your mastery. As for the +2 to 'add a stat', that is legal through various ways. Avengers Book lets you 'add' to an Ability via a +3 option (Appendix D). Limiting it to Transform Into would be +2. Or, if you prefer, you could look at Shrinking, +1 so every 2 levels of the Action adds to Strength. Costing +2 for 'every level' to add is fair. Don't forget that the Actions and Modifiers in the book are listed as: Examples, so it's encouraged to manipulate the powers a bit to get what you want from it. Shrinkings Insect strength [+1] also has sealing of 6[10/2 (+1, min str)], this is because you can´t have shirinking 10+ as at begining you´re limited to AN 10 and Shrinking can´t be improved. -2 limitation to 'doesn't help friends' is as fair here as anywhere. However, since he'd have to pay 13 anyhow, giving it a -1 would keep it at the same overall costs. Sphynx By same reasoning, one could give the same limitation to Sunfire[as he has free FF]. all I am saying is that your going against your own[actually colossus] Char concept as the whole point of the mastery is that YOU transform into Organic Steel.
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Post by sphynx on May 12, 2005 4:44:47 GMT -5
That first paragraph was intended to be 2 (completely seperate entities of discussion). The -1 being part of my future reference for Strength increase.
Free Forcefield is ok, if a GM is restrictive in making it cost one of his 2 possible actions, so be it, keep a stone in it. (I think we agree there)
+2 for Strength, or +3, doesn't matter all that much. I'd accept +3 and pay 15 stones for the Mastery at 6. He still falls in the 40 stone range with challenges (+3 for Mutant, +3 for Sister Charge/Dependant, etc), However I do think the rules support a +2 cost, and it is in-theme.
The problem with SunFire having self-only, is that I picture the self-only (Doesn't Help Friends) as being a -2 for anything that doesn't extend beyond yourself. Sort of a (Range limited to 0, No Touch allowed) sort of deal. So, if the Mastery had a Force Blast, or he wanted to create/manipulate outside of himself, I'd agree with you. However, making a Mastery purely to work on yourself I think has as rightful a place taking that -2 as a ForceField or Teleportation.
BTW, you don't actually transform into. Human Torch and IceMan just 'suit up' and have the Transform Into.
Sphynx
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Post by omniscient on May 12, 2005 4:55:52 GMT -5
Fair enough.
Altough I have to point this out...
"Oh crap, that 9 stones would actually be 13 (25/2 rounds up to 13)"
Wrong.
Mastery of BioOrganic Steel 6 (9 Stones) +1 Transform Into +2 Free Force Field when used (Transformed Into) +1 Magic Included +2 Add Mastery to Strength -2 Can Not Imrpove with Lines of Experience -2 Doesn't Help Friends (You have the Mastery for the Force Field really, and this makes it 'skin tight'.)
Cost is right.
when you determinate the minimun cost of an Action/Modifier, you only take account the AN + BASE cost...
you can "Buy" Advantages & Options through Disadvantage & Limitations...
this is described in the book
EXAMPLE:
Cyclops FB has AN 9, it's total costlevel is 7 [as 9+2-2-2= 7] and total cost is 6 W. With your calculations I would cost 10 [9CL+2CL=11CL=20W(20/2=10)]
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Post by sphynx on May 12, 2005 5:08:23 GMT -5
You can "Buy" Advantages & Options through Disadvantage & Limitations... this is described in the book Can you give me a page reference to see where "Options" can be bought via Disadvantages? Otherwise I'll have to assume, again, that this is open to interpretation. Disadvantages can not reduce the 'base cost' by more than half. Base Cost is assumed in most games to include Options. While, as a player, I'm all for your interpretation, most people seem to disagree. I disagree with it when I play the GM though. Positive and Negative options are part of calculating the Base Cost in all my games though, as either player or GM. Sphynx
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Post by omniscient on May 12, 2005 5:17:41 GMT -5
Can you give me a page reference to see where "Options" can be bought via Disadvantages? Otherwise I'll have to assume, again, that this is open to interpretation. Disadvantages can not reduce the 'base cost' by more than half. Base Cost is assumed in most games to include Options. While, as a player, I'm all for your interpretation, most people seem to disagree. I disagree with it when I play the GM though. Positive and Negative options are part of calculating the Base Cost in all my games though, as either player or GM. Sphynx Page reference, No as I don´t have my book with me and altough I have a decent memory I can´t recall the page number. The book doesn't separate Advantages and Options [or Disadvantages & Limitations] I used Cyclops as an example because the book gives a rundown on it´s cost 6 W. it´s probably either in FB description or rigth after the Actions/Modifiers section.
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Post by sphynx on May 12, 2005 5:22:23 GMT -5
Well, to quote the book:
It doesn't say anything about buying Options (or even Advantages) with Disadvantages. Meaning that if we went purely by-the-book, Options or Advantages are both added before the cost can be reduced by Disadvantages, and (Base+Options+Advantages)/2 is the minimum cost with Disadvantages.
However, fortunately, most people do allow the buying off of Advantages with Disadvantages before limiting the redux via Disadvantages to half.
Sphynx
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Post by reff on May 14, 2005 13:03:03 GMT -5
even though you said different in ninja and close combat sphynx. you never said it was a house rule, just stated it as fact.
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