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Post by WildKnight on Apr 25, 2011 20:32:05 GMT -5
Agreed, but I still think AtM is a terrible choice for Cyclops. Letting him fire his blast every round without taking an action and without costing any stones is too much.
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Post by malice on Apr 25, 2011 22:08:54 GMT -5
I made his AoO version awhile back, but honestly I have a hard time getting serious or caring that much about building the perfect Cyclops. The fix has to be made to Force Blast, not just his CAD. Outside of getting his Force Blast to work right, his CAD is pretty much a boring soldier-type. So if you just have a functional force blast action, his CAD follows easily after.
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Post by WildKnight on Apr 25, 2011 22:10:36 GMT -5
I made his AoO version awhile back, but honestly I have a hard time getting serious or caring that much about building the perfect Cyclops. The fix has to be made to Force Blast, not just his CAD. Outside of getting his Force Blast to work right, his CAD is pretty much a boring soldier-type. So if you just have a functional force blast action, his CAD follows easily after. Given.
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Post by andyman on Apr 25, 2011 22:18:06 GMT -5
Agreed, but I still think AtM is a terrible choice for Cyclops. Letting him fire his blast every round without taking an action and without costing any stones is too much. WildKnight, Cyclops would have to allocate stones to Ranged Combat (in order to aim). The Force Blast (modifier) would act as a Ranged combat modifier, like a Weapon Modifier would. Cyclops may have Ranged Combat [5] and Force Blast [+4] instead of Force Blast [9] as an Action.
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Post by GhostKnight on Apr 25, 2011 22:34:11 GMT -5
Agreed with A-man.
I think playah wanted to use that as a house rule: to turn Force blast into a modifier and that it can't be used without ranged combat.
Or, I would say, Cyclops with targeting and ranged combat with an advantage that it can be used without weapon modifier? Or maybe not.
Any comments on how would you do Cyclops WK?
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Post by WildKnight on Apr 26, 2011 6:21:47 GMT -5
Agreed, but I still think AtM is a terrible choice for Cyclops. Letting him fire his blast every round without taking an action and without costing any stones is too much. WildKnight, Cyclops would have to allocate stones to Ranged Combat (in order to aim). The Force Blast (modifier) would act as a Ranged combat modifier, like a Weapon Modifier would. Cyclops may have Ranged Combat [5] and Force Blast [+4] instead of Force Blast [9] as an Action. Right, I'm fine with that, but that's not how most people interpret/use AtM
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Post by malice on Apr 26, 2011 7:03:32 GMT -5
...which is because that's not necessarily how it works.
Most actions all require the same activation trigger: Stones of effort from their wielder.
Modifiers have more varied triggers. The problem with AtM is you remove the thing that keeps most actions making sense, the stones of effort, and supply nothing in its place.
Modifiers DO work on their own, or not, depending on the modifier. Perception modifiers are on all the time working at 100%. So are defensive modifiers. Other modifiers activate at will, requiring no action at all. Others require stones of investment from a related action.
Aside from Energy Absorption/Reflection and Steal Superpower, all actions only work when you tell them to, occasionally conveying some specifically stated passive benefit like Acrobatics.
Like I said, Action-to-Modifier removes all the consistencies that make actions work, and refuses to supply a replacement like those that most modifiers already possess. It breaks down like when you stop making things stones vs. stones.
It works on equipment, because that's what it was meant for, it doesn't work nearly as well on characters.
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Post by WildKnight on Apr 26, 2011 7:16:45 GMT -5
You and I disagree on one fundamental point; Modifiers working on their own.
As PG said, while they sometimes modify a pool of zero, they never work entirely in a vacuum. For instance, Toughness might be the only Defensive stones you have, but the Defensive Pool is still always there. Similarly; Targeting does nothing on it's own, even though the stones are always there. They only "activate" when Ranged Combat is used.
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Post by malice on Apr 26, 2011 8:06:54 GMT -5
So you don't allow the guy with Animal Senses to benefit from them at all unless he focuses with an action like Hunting and Tracking or Concentration? I, the human being, have a pretty damn keen sense of smell. It's just something I have (Made up for with laughably worthless eyesight), and I promise you I almost never put stones of effort into smelling things. I breathe in and out with zero stones of effort, my nose has been cunningly engineered into my airway by Mother Nature. It's not a superpower, it's just biological design.
Furthermore, what's this semantic back door about "Pool of zero?" If you have a pool of zero, you're not doing anything because action is defined by stones of effort. If you're not doing anything then it's working on its own. "Pool of zero" sounds like another way of saying "works on its own" that doesn't have to admit it was wrong about how modifiers work. "Modifies a pool of zero" = "works on its own."
Do the people in your games who buy Enhanced Vision: See in Darkness get to stumble around blind in the dark unless they spend a stone? Does Leech have to spend a stone on "worthless Morlock slime" to make his Suppress Mutant Powers work? Is the guy with Electrification utterly screwed because he didn't buy an action that interfaced believably with his skin?
I've restricted my response so far to modifiers with a modifier number, but what about the dozens that have no modifier number that work exactly like I said they did? Some of them are just actions engineered for modifier flavor, like Inter-Dimensional Travel (It's just teleportation with conditions, but you never spend a stone, you just do it).
Actions work because you invest stones of effort. If you turn the action into a modifier, you've removed the activation key and quit work before you put anything in its place.
Some modifiers work on their own, just like I said. Others require a trigger. "Modifying a pool of zero" is exactly the same thing as "work on their own, at 100%, all the time."
Most sensory modifiers are on, working on their own, all the time. Most offensive modifiers modify an offensive action, not activating until stones are spent on the appropriate action. Most Defensive modifiers get modified by the action (Instead of the other way around), because they're on all the time. Some modifiers have specific triggers, like touching someone (Electrification, Transform others by Touch).
Actions activate with stones of effort from someone, unless you're Steal Superpower, which is an action primarily to penalize it (Since you have one less action).
Of course you can turn off a lot of modifiers with simple, common, effortless actions like shutting your eyes, plugging your nose, or wearing a full bodysuit that keeps anything from touching your skin. Ok, the last one sounds like a lot of effort, but the point is that modifiers have different activation keys, while actions don't.
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Post by terrafate on Apr 26, 2011 10:50:32 GMT -5
I honestly haven't ever liked AtM because the only people that have approached me to use are people that are trying to min max their character. I was told in a RL game that I had to use it once though. I actually thanked the GM for doing that later though. It was an alternate version of Serenity from EIH where she had been recaptured and experimented on some more. The scientists screwed up big time and trapped her in her tiger form. One thing the scientists had given her to help? Telepathy...the only thing she could do with it was talk to people. The GM told me I had to make it action to modifier so I didn't have to spend all my stones just talking to people.
So for little things like that I do see the use. Other then that, I have only seen people try to min max a character with it.
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Post by Puck on Apr 26, 2011 11:02:07 GMT -5
I can see someone with flight as AtM. A pixie or otherwise handicapped. Although that would defeat a challenge me thinks .oO
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Post by WildKnight on Apr 26, 2011 13:16:43 GMT -5
So you don't allow the guy with Animal Senses to benefit from them at all unless he focuses with an action like Hunting and Tracking or Concentration? Yes. That's called modifying a pool of zero, just as in the case of Toughness modifying a Defensive Pool that would otherwise be zero.
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Post by Brainstem on Apr 26, 2011 16:33:36 GMT -5
Think in terms of D&D 4E. You have your Perception skill, but you also have a Passive Perception skill listed. In combat, you're always assumed to be paying attention at a base level (Passive Perception/"Observation Pool of Zero"), but you can also put some extra effort into seeing what's going on (Perception Roll/Use of Action). Enhanced Vision, since that's the example used, would modify that assumed observation base pool of zero. You aren't constantly firing a gun in combat, so why would a Force Blast AtM assume that you're constantly shooting your Force Blast?
Alternate route... Cyclops is always shooting his Optic Blast, but he has the visor to contain it. That, however, I think is more factored into Power Out of Control as opposed to AtM.
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Post by malice on Apr 27, 2011 23:28:37 GMT -5
Yes. That's called modifying a pool of zero, just as in the case of Toughness modifying a Defensive Pool that would otherwise be zero. It's also called being on all the time, working on its own. Think in terms of D&D 4E. You have your Perception skill, but you also have a Passive Perception skill listed. In combat, you're always assumed to be paying attention at a base level (Passive Perception/"Observation Pool of Zero"), but you can also put some extra effort into seeing what's going on (Perception Roll/Use of Action). Enhanced Vision, since that's the example used, would modify that assumed observation base pool of zero. You aren't constantly firing a gun in combat, so why would a Force Blast AtM assume that you're constantly shooting your Force Blast? Alternate route... Cyclops is always shooting his Optic Blast, but he has the visor to contain it. That, however, I think is more factored into Power Out of Control as opposed to AtM. You're arguing from the perspective that AtM works because it simply must. You WOULDN'T fire a gun all the time or a Force Blast... because they're actions. They stop making sense as modifiers. The difference between action and modifier isn't cosmetic, it's mechanical, and just deciding that one should work as the other doesn't work.
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Post by Brainstem on Apr 27, 2011 23:43:02 GMT -5
Well, I mean, just look at the Modifiers; they all work in that way, too (looking at the ones with Modifier Numbers, of course).
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