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Post by roxolid on Oct 21, 2011 13:14:45 GMT -5
What - abilities as modifiers, changing how modifiers work, getting rid of the Health/Energy 'death spiral' (or at least slowing it down some to half and quarter health), balancing powers and more clearly defining how they work, adding more powers and expanding the D&R chart to include weight/distance/time/speed in between the stated existing limits so characters look less like each other? It does all that already? *checks books* I must have a different version then Off topic though - there was a different cover for the North American market wasn't there? Was that a first edition (or second, and I have the first?) and did it have anything different inside? Back on topic - if MURPG was perfect and covered all the bases, more people would have bought it and we wouldn't be having this conversation That said, I think the devotion to the game from the people on this board is testament to the fact that the game has *something* going for it when other games (The Saga system for instance) have fizzled. As I mentioned earlier - if there's not enough interest in updating the game (heck, even by fixing the errors and putting all the characters, powers, modifiers and so on in one place) I won't waste my time by pitching in. There's got to be more people than just me wanting to 'fix and update' the game hasn't there?
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Post by Brainstem on Oct 21, 2011 13:39:12 GMT -5
Using Abilities to substitute in for Actions, differentiating Intelligence and mental fortitude, mooks, etc. Those things are all based in the RAW. If your mooks aren't going down in one hit, that's a problem on your part; if you think the Actions don't represent combat effectively, you're doing something wrong; if your character with a low Intelligence but with a high mental fortitude is having trouble with Telepaths, you're not doing it right. Every power you could want can be covered through RAW; I challenge you to find one that can't be represented. The D&R chart that you're explaining does exist. It's in the book. On page 80. The chart shows super heroes and, with super heroes, there's no need to differentiate between running 20mph to running 40mph. If you're proposing the same thing I did a few pages back, which would be to create different D&R charts for different power levels, then sure, but the abstract nature of stones already implies that this is doable and desirable.
The way to fix it isn't by throwing around free stones. If you give characters a free Defense relative to their Agility, you'll see the same problems you have now with Toughness/Reflexive Dodge, but you'll see it through Abilities and not through the Modifiers directly. It's the exact issue of a spiraling decline that WK mentioned; characters are going to pump their Agility to boost their survivability so the GM/other players will have to pump Strength to boost their effectiveness in combat. Players will, in turn, continue to boost their own Agility and you just have the same issue we have now.
And, on a final note, updating the game is ultimately a waste of time. Not to be a negative nancy or anything, but with all the revisions and shit that show up here, the game winds up being played as it's played and it's through the House Rules of the specific DM. The time and effort put into creating a new PDF of MURPG 2.0 doesn't seem worth it strictly because it wouldn't see light outside this community and a majority of the people in the community already have an established means of playing.
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Post by roxolid on Oct 21, 2011 17:18:42 GMT -5
Well, the points you make are fair enough - I think you more or less answered the question at the top of the page - what ever happened to MURPG 2.0?
It wasn't wanted, or needed.
I'll divert my efforts elsewhere then.
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Post by takewithfood on Oct 21, 2011 21:29:14 GMT -5
Again, the important thing is that we discuss new ideas for rules together. As long as you don't try to earn a complete consensus from everyone in the discussion, you're bound to come up with some great new ideas.
So, I say keep up the effort, just don't expect "MURPG 2.0".
~TWF
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Post by roxolid on Oct 21, 2011 23:29:10 GMT -5
Whilst I was at work (amazing the things you think of whilst driving a train - yes, it's that dull) I thought about Abilities as modifiers but using a system as that used for a force field - in other words you only get a free stone for every stone you pay for.
Say you have Close Combat with a Strength bonus. The strength gives a free bonus stone for every energy stone you pay for with CC up to your strength score.
e.g Captain America has 4 strength and 7 CC. If he puts 3 stones in CC he gets 3 free stones from his strength. If he puts 7 stones into CC he gets 4 (his max) stones from strength for an attack of 11, cost 7.
I wanted to strike a balance between the Abilities as free stones and energy use - so to get any benefit from your abilities you either use an action and get them as a bonus for every stone spent, or spend stones in the ability itself. If Cap just wanted to lift something he'd put stones into strength as usual.
Another example is Spider-man. With CC 2 and Agility/Str bonus he can get 6 attack simply by spending 2 stones. The guy he's fighting with CC7 and Str7 gets 4 attack from his 2 stones spent. However, things change when both put their max effort into attacking. Spidey Spends 2 stones on CC, gets 4 free stones (2 each from str and agility) then spends 7 extra stones to use the remainder of his agility (up to 6) and strength (up to 5) for a total of 9 spent and attack 13.
His foe spends 7 stones and gets 7 free from his strength for an attack of 14.
On the one hand spidey is an efficient fighter, but when going all out his lack of skill is a hindrance.
I expect his skill will be greater these days - probably along the lines of 4 stones thanks to his recent training from Shang Chi. That will make Spiderman far more formidable and efficient. He would spend 4 stones for a 12 stone attack and can top out at 15 stones for a total cost of 7. Current system has him topping out at 12, limited by energy (which would be dropped to zero, then he'd be on 6 for the next panel and be on the back foot swinging half strength punches until he can nab a breather)
Weapons give an extra free stone for every one spent in attack - after all they don't swing themselves. Thor could attack with CC7. He gets 7 free stones from strength, 7 from the hammer. For 7 energy he doles out 21 attack. If he went all out he could spend 4 more stones (to max out strength and his weapon - he's swinging it harder, it costs energy) to come up with a 25 stone attack. In the current system that would cost him 17 stones. In this one it costs him 11 and he has some left for defence or to pound away next panel as well. It just means that the usual case of 'throw all stones into attack first panel and struggle rest of the time' is eliminated to a degree. How that would work in terms of combat and making fights more interesting/exciting, I don't know. I'd need to playtest it.
Defensive modifiers only give free stones when you throw something into defence - simply standing there allows the other guy to sock you in the eye or kick you in the nuts (about the only way you'll get Hulks' attention). If Hulk spends 4 stones in Durability for defence though he gets +4 from toughness for a total of 8. Sure it cost him energy, but Hulk can max out his protection to 15 stones by paying for 7 Durability and the extra stone in toughness for a total of 8 stones spent. There aren't many bombs or guns that'll get past that, but it will cost Hulk something in the way of energy. Putting up that kind of defence will tire Hulk out though, so you as a player will have to decide whether to take a hit or block it with defence stones. Toying with the idea that toughness only works with a durability expenditure (to make durability important) but reflexive dodge works with Agility, Acrobatics or similar Action (Ninja, Close Combat, that sort of thing). It would make Reflex dodge more expensive than toughness because of the extra versatility.
The point of this is - no free rides. If there is a balance issue it's with modifiers/free stones. Those with them will overpower those without at some point unless the one without has a healing factor and loads of energy every panel.
I'll continue to play around with a few bits and pieces but take it off board or maybe try them out when I run a game on here at some point. Need a guinea pig... *looks about evilly*
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Post by Gryphynx on Oct 24, 2011 8:49:45 GMT -5
Sorry for such a delay, life has been rough and will continue to be too time consuming until after the 1st of the month (so my apologies to any of my players in the 2 games I'm running... I just don't have time to do all the calcs and repost right now...)
That being said, I WILL continue working on this project, with or without help, but I'm not calling it the MURPG 2.0, taking from the book itself, I'm referring to it in my notes as Resource-Decision RPG. The levels I'm talking are much broader than the afore mentioned, because I've noticed that about half the games on these boards are for a much lower power level.
I'm thinking of the following Power Levels:
1 - Human, for Zombie Apocalypse like scenarios. 2 - Peak Human for Mortal Kombat or StreetFighter type games (possibly includes Punisher/Daredevil level power) 3 - Sub Superhuman for Fantasy Genre type games where "powers" are available. 4 - Superhuman for Spiderman, vampire/werewolf, etc type games 5 - WorldHero for IronMan, Magneto, etc, style games 6 - Pantheon for the 'super' super games with Thor, Thanos, Silver Surfer types.
The important part being (something nobody other than me has commented on in this thread thus far) that Actions are 5x what they are now, and energy levels equitable to that increase. Similarly to Nobilis, Attributes grant "free" energy, but Character-Levels can reduce them. Meaning that taking out a bad guy a level higher than you requires more energy expenditure to overcome his 'default' defenses... And of course, peons of a lower rank, are cake to walk through as long as you're not playing dumb.
Anyhows, would post what I have, but ipad keyboard is a real pain. Will try to post some more later.
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Post by roxolid on Oct 24, 2011 9:27:21 GMT -5
I guess the challenge is in cooking up a diceless system that pays quickly and easily, contains only a moderate level of crunch yet is clearer and more wide ranging than the original system.
I'm working on my own game which is a mash up of several out of print games but uses dice (albeit 2d10, so not a great hardship) For me there should be something, a wild card, a once in a lifetime shot, some mechanic to cover the one offs you see in comics - Thor Beating Gladiator, Spiderman beating Firelord, that sort of thing. Dice can do that.
I thought for MURPG (or at least a variation) a character could call on the up to the next two panels recovery stones to 'one shot' or give 'maximum effort' but they'd lose out on recovery for 4 panels as they recover. In other words, if that doesn't work, you really are screwed.
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Post by Gryphynx on Oct 24, 2011 9:35:49 GMT -5
I think there's already a system for that in MURPG. An ability to "write" back panels for bonus stones... recalling some time when you faced a similar situation. Like Spider-Man recalling something his Uncle once told him for a Flashback Bonus. (At work, so can't point out the rule off hand, but that might have just been our local houserule... though I seem to recall it actually was in the core book)
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Post by roxolid on Oct 24, 2011 10:13:44 GMT -5
There was a flashback panel, along the lines of: " Flashback PanelWhen a character calls for a Flashback Panel, she's basically requesting a positive Situational Modifier. In other words, she's asking you to give her a break in return for adding to the storyline. It happens in comic books all the time, and it's okay to let it happen here, too. However, it's important to keep Flashbacks at a minimum to avoid eating up the group's playing time with too many individual concerns. That's why we limit Flashbacks to one per player per Mission. You can vary this, if you want. To get the +1 stone Situational Modifier added to her Action's stones (or defensive stones), the player must first cite the Flashback. After asking for the Flashback Panel, the player would say something like, "I think back to the time when my master taught me how to...," or, "I blink back tears remembering how my best friend died at the hands of ..." The incident she refers to must have some relevance to the situation at hand. It doesn't actually have to have happened, or to be written down on her Character Profile Record. It just has to be plausible. If the player is really clever, then her Flashback Panel could even lead to additional Modifiers or plot hooks. If she is remembering the day she swore vengeance on the villain who killed her family, or the day she pledged that someday she'd learn to fly, she might well deserve additional Situational Modifier stones in her favor." Or something like that. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Spider-Man (or Thor for that matter, even with his awesome attack) would need something more than just a stone to beat their respective foes in the examples I suggested (vs Gladiator, who could paste the Avengers, and did in that issue on his own until Thor got mad, and Firelord, who'd been kicking Spider-Mans' ass all through that issue and only when the city was threatened did he did deep to get that, uh, extra stone.). Another mechanic, separate from energy stones might cover it. Hero Points maybe. Use a hero point to double all the stones you spend in one panel. Of course,they won't be easy to come by - they'd vary in effect (from adding stones to doubling or tripling stones) according to the power of the character using them for those special one off occasions - like saving the City, Earth, Galaxy. I recall an Avengers issue where the strong guys caught an island that Gravitons' power had condensed into a handy, catching size rock One of the Avengers muttered "I don't know how many millions of tons this ways, but let's get rid of it!" or words to that effect (might have been Wonder Man). Needless to say they somehow threw this thing out into the bay thus saving the city. In game terms it should have left a condensed island size hole in the Avengers and New York - lifting 100 tons doesn't make a dent into what is required to catch and throw an island made superheavy by Gravitons power... That's the sort of thing that happens once in a while - the heroes bust all limits to pull off the impossible. Easy done with dice (rolling ultra high will do it) not so easy with defined limits as to what characters can and cannot do. The DC Heroes game (MEGs) version had 'pushing' mechanics, and I think (don't quote me, mind) Mutants and Masterminds had something similar. MURPG has 'you get a flashback stone for remembering something that happened to you in the past'. Player: Yup, Firelord you say? No problem! I add my extra Flashback into hitting that goon. Does he go down? GM: Firelord barely blinks at your extra effort, kicks your ass then melts you.
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Post by Brainstem on Oct 24, 2011 13:55:50 GMT -5
You underestimate the power of a single stone! A single stone can bridge the gap between two and three points of damage on a foe or can overcome the difficulty needed to get a job done a panel sooner. The proliferation of Modifiers devalues the Flashback Panel (and Sit Mods in general) because free stones are too easy to come by. If we infer the RAI to desire an incredibly modest use of Modifiers, then the free stones from Sit Mods/Flashbacks will actually do something.
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Post by Gryphynx on Oct 24, 2011 14:07:30 GMT -5
Or... you could just increase the number of stones its worth. With my system, it would be +10, more than the free stones from the Attribute.
Alternately, maybe we should consider (since we're pretty much removing Modifiers) to use the Good Luck modifier in some manner, basically granting everyone a once-per-chapter Good Luck usage (maybe call it something else... Karma?) Base it on the Power Level, so in that previous Example, Spider-Man put all he had into the attack, then got +40 (level 4 hero) to the energy total.
NOTE: +10 an +40 are not all that great in my 100 energy system. If we go with a more modest system, that bonus would obviously have to be reduced...
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Post by roxolid on Oct 24, 2011 16:20:59 GMT -5
Without modifiers of some kind we'd basically be looking at "Whoever has the most energy stones wins. Fight over." Must be a way of introducing some kind of strategy to that. Anyone remember the old D&D Companion War Machine mechanic? You chose a strategy, the other side chose one and the winner took a certain amount of casualties, the loser took many more or was wiped out.
It doesn't have to be many strategies - 6 down each side of a table and cross reference. You could have; 'All out attack' (otherwise known as "Hulk Smash" or "it's CLOBBERING TIME!"), 'All out defence', 'Hit and run', 'Taunt', 'Wait for opening' and maybe 'Outflank' or something similar. Each had a strong pair of strategies it was great against, a neutral one and and a couple strategies that dropped its pants.
Another possibility is to allow free use of actions and abilities and the player can add energy stones to boost them to up to double their normal value (just change the scales on the D&R chart to half so the player has to pump in as many stones as they have strength, say, to lift their full entitlement). That way even without energy stones left a character can still fight and defend themselves, only at half effectiveness.
e.g. Spiderman fights Green Goblin. He has 13 attack (CC+Str+Agi) and 12 energy, 6 defence (Acrobatics). Goblin has 10 attack (CC+Str) and 11 Defence (Vehicle Operation 4 + 4 from vehicle +2 from body suit) with 12 energy. Spidey goes 6/6 on attack defence whilst Gobby goes for 10 points on attack (his max) and 2 on defence. Spidermans prescience would (in this example) double any stones he puts into defence as he tries to avoid the blow.
Spiderman has 19 attack vs Gobbys 13 defence so does 6 damage (Health points would be 10 per durability +5 per strength, so 65 each). Goblin has 20 attack vs Spidermans 18 defence so takes 2 damage. As goblin swoops in, Spiderman leaps aside at the last minute whilst landing a glancing blow on Goblins arm. Neither is badly injured and on 6 energy stones next panel. Spiderman is on 63/65 health, Goblin on 59/65 Health. Note that evenly matched foes like this would take a while to sort out with fights. Thor vs Goblin would last about 2 or 3 panels, if that.
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