exist as element disadvantage

[Pink]

How would this work if you had Mastery of the Four Elements (as Crystal in the Guide to the Hulk and Avengers)?

A character idea I had was a hero with that Mastery, with the disadvantage that he must exist as the element of his mastery (one of them) at any given time.

Would it still be a disadvantage to say that he must exist as either air, water, earth, or fire, but can change between them?

That just seems like a cool idea to me. A hero with that mastery, but at exists as one of those elements all the time (having the ability to change between the different elements through an act of will).

[Gryphynx]

Exists as Element doesn't provide anything in regards to bonus, so yes, choosing which element you currently are is plausible if you have Mastery of multiple elements. You won't gain toughness for being Earth, you won't gain Phasing for being Air or Water, you won't get a touch-ranged Force Blast for being fire. You just take on that appearance... So, no problem.

[malice]

As Gryphynx said, being an element has no official effect. If you're GMing you can implement a few things to make it more interesting though.

Generally in normal games I don't recommend giving anything away for free, but discounts are a popular option and help Mastery characters round themselves out a bit.

Here are some options I explored awhile back that do just that. If you scroll down to the posts with a lot of varied colors you'll see some potential choices. Other GMs are free to make up their own options or choose not to have anything extra at all. I've just found that when I want to make a Mastery character the only way it feels right is if I spend MOST my stones shaping the character around the mastery, and every other method feels like half-assing it. So given the difficulty of affording a non-lopsided character, I thought I'd suggest some alternatives.

[Brainstem]

Be aware, however, that you shouldn't be giving discounts for a character that has the "Must Exist" Disadvantage. The essence of this Disadvantage is in its dehumanizing the character and is meant to be a Disadvantage. If you're used it to create a character that gets cheaper Modifiers and Actions because "he always exists as fire," you're doing it wrong. That's fine when you're creating a character that Transforms into fire since the powers aren't considered to be "always on," but if you always exist as fire, you shouldn't get a discount for it.

[malice]

I disagree there. I can't quite stomach the idea that someone who exists as an element all the time is somehow less good at it than someone who just does it part time. The disadvantage already nets you challenge stones for looking non-human, so it's not like you can counteract the fact that crunch-wise it's not a DISadvantage. As with many disadvantages and challenges, it's up to the GM to make it hurt in-game, because it just doesn't that much at character creation.

Consider the drawbacks of meeting another master of your element when you exist only as that element. Suddenly you're play-doh for them, and you can't do much to stop it. The GM might also nail you with weaknesses like fire being weak vs. water and air dispersing at higher altitudes. If you don't like the disadvantage, by all means don't allow it, but don't encourage it to be pointless (As many people think it already is).

That's just my slant on it though, all of the discount stuff is house rules to begin with, so there is absolutely nothing compelling anyone to use it. I just can't see telling a player their fire that they live as all the time is somehow much less cool than the fire that someone else can turn into.

[Brainstem]

The reason the discounts exist when you can transform is because you have to activate these powers, at least as I understand them. If Master Mason gets +3 Toughness when turning into stone but doesn't have that when not in his Element, then you have a less useful Modifier. Toughness gets a -1CL because it's not always active; because you have to will yourself to turn into stone. If you aren't activating it, it's the same as if you didn't Transform at all. Namor still has to pay to breathe underwater, after all; he shouldn't get that Modifier for free because it's something inherent to his power.

[malice]

I agree that you shouldn't get it for free, that's why it is instead discounted.

The flipside to the problem is that "transform into" does absolutely nothing just the same as "exist only as" does almost nothing. I guess the trouble I'm having is that I don't see "must transform into it to gain it" as a big deal. It's not a big disadvantage, because if you're fighting and your elemental form is tougher you're going to fight in that form. If you get surprised you're doomed anyway, or you're not because you weren't going to be anyway.

The obstacle for my mind is the fact that a human controls every aspect of the game. There are no glitches whereupon the physics engine kills you randomly or you get stuck in level geometry. There are no natural 1s. If something is going to happen, the GM is making it happen with specific results in mind most of the time. They're usually just as surprised as you are when someone gets K.O.ed for bad allocations, because usually they either planned the fight to have a high chance of K.O.ing you or they didn't, and whether you had your toughness activated just isn't a big factor.

I CAN see how always existing as a specific element would be bad though. So I'm inclined to give that person at least as much of a break. It's not a lot of breaks either way, so it doesn't seem unfair to give it to either one or both.

[WildKnight]

Nov 10, 2011 22:14:44 GMT -5 Brainstem said:

Be aware, however, that you shouldn't be giving discounts for a character that has the "Must Exist" Disadvantage. The essence of this Disadvantage is in its dehumanizing the character and is meant to be a Disadvantage. If you're used it to create a character that gets cheaper Modifiers and Actions because "he always exists as fire," you're doing it wrong. That's fine when you're creating a character that Transforms into fire since the powers aren't considered to be "always on," but if you always exist as fire, you shouldn't get a discount for it.

In MURPG, there is no such thing as an "inherent power", no matter how logical it might seem. For instance, machines are not immune to Telepathy. That's why PA has to have Artificial Emotion. I can't think of a single psychic in Marvel Comics that can affect both humans AND machines, but there you have it.

I think this is along the lines of what Brainy is getting at. You don't get anything in MURPG for just having a particular background. Mutants don't get a power for free, monkeys don't get Acrobatics for free, etc. You definitely shouldn't get a freebie for a disadvantage

[malice]

I understand the lack of inherent powers. I think we were discussing it in another thread pretty recently actually. I guess I tend to see living only as an element as more of a crippling medical condition than a race or inherent ability. I don't saddle them with challenges they don't take, but I do keep in mind that this creature isn't much like the the other characters other players are playing.

[WildKnight]

Nov 11, 2011 15:22:11 GMT -5 malice said:

I understand the lack of inherent powers. I think we were discussing it in another thread pretty recently actually. I guess I tend to see living only as an element as more of a crippling medical condition than a race or inherent ability. I don't saddle them with challenges they don't take, but I do keep in mind that this creature isn't much like the the other characters other players are playing.

Of course they aren't. That's why it's a disadvantage.

I can imagine all kinds of hinky issues based on perceiving the world from the perspective of living flame, for instance.

[Gryphynx]

I personally have no problem with a person buying something as "only in elemental form", with an "always in elemental form". Hell, if it's thematic, I can be talked into -1 just because it's theme. If someone did -1 Discount for having Mastery of Earth to Toughness Modifier, I'd totally allow it just as the MURPG allows you a -1 to Hunting AND Reflexive Dodge just for having Animal Senses.

People forget that these are "Examples of Actions" and "Examples of Modifiers". That's the actual title to each of those chapters. So, if the Animal Senses is an Example to go off of, than allowing a -1 to toughness purely because you can (or are permanently) transform into Earth via a Mastery, I absolutely will allow it.

[Brainstem]

Nonononono, sorry but I just can't get behind the idea of giving "thematic" discounts. Every character should be built around some kind of theme, so giving a discount for something that should already be present is redundant at the very least (since the prices should already be taking this into consideration). Spider-Man, for example, has a theme of spider based powers, but this doesn't give him a discount on Wall Crawling. To go off your example, a Master of Earth doesn't necessitate increased Toughness. Terra (basing on the Teen Titans show, not the comic) wasn't particularly resilient, but she was definitely a Master of Earth. If you opt for the power, you pay for the power and only get discounts where appropriate (such as a Modifier that becomes conditional).

To explain it a bit differently, I'm fairly certain that the -1 "Ties to Mastery" Discount is just a rewording of the "Requires Connection to Use" Disadvantage.

[Gryphynx]

Being "fairly certain" doesn't make it so. Like I said, these are "Examples of Actions" and "Examples of Modifiers". Giving thematic discounts does make sense, hence TK being cheaper for Telepaths, Dodge being cheaper for Animal Senses, Mesmerism being cheaper for Magic Users, Fling or other Movement Power being cheaper for Masteries. But, thematic to the power, not necessarily the character.

SpiderMan doesn't have a power that is thematically linked to Wall Crawling. The fact that there are 4 "Examples" makes it canonical enough to give discounts for thematically similar powers. And Terra did not change into Earth, so no, it wouldn't be thematic for her. If however, Thing were written as Mastery of Earth (bonus Str/Dur, exists as, etc but no create/manipulate) then a discount for Toughness would fit that canonical list of "Examples".

[WildKnight]

*bangs head on wall*

This is the same stupid $#@!ing argument Steve and I already had in another thread with Gryph. Chalk it up to a fundamental disagreement on the function of the game and move on.