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Post by UrbanBlue on Jan 28, 2012 14:56:30 GMT -5
So I was playing Ultimate Alliance 2 and wanted to ask a simple question:
Forgetting all of the horrible things the Pro-Reg side did during the civil war, would you have supported the registration movement?
Personally I would have.
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Post by shazam on Jan 28, 2012 15:46:28 GMT -5
It would clearly depend on if I myself was a "hero", on the one hand it makes sense following the disaster but ultimately I'd find it a dangerous plan; how often have villains hacked government organizations to get information and then BAM! Suddenly my enemies are gunning for my family and friends.
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Post by WildKnight on Jan 28, 2012 17:28:28 GMT -5
If I were a normal human, I absolutely would have supported registration, and I can't see any reasonable argument for non-costumed type to do otherwise. Unregulated heroes simply caused too much damage and suffering over the years.
If I were a hero? No way on Earth would I register. Trusting the U.S. Federal Government (any government, really) is right up there near the top of list of incredibly stupid things one can do.
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Post by andyman on Jan 28, 2012 17:34:20 GMT -5
I'd be against registration, and here is why.
Should geniuses be forced to register because they are smart enough to get away with murder? Should anyone who can lift over 400 lbs. be forced to register because their great strength makes them too dangerous?
Registering also meant that in order to use their powers, the superhumans had to work for the government.
Should geniuses be forced to either work for the government or not use their genius at all? (Composers can't compose for personal pleasure, writers can't write, scientists have to either work at government labs or at McDonalds)
Should anyone who can lift over 400 lbs. be forced to work for the government or else it will be illegal for them to exercise or lift weights so they can't get even stronger?
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Post by WildKnight on Jan 28, 2012 18:49:34 GMT -5
I'd be against registration, and here is why. Should geniuses be forced to register because they are smart enough to get away with murder? Should anyone who can lift over 400 lbs. be forced to register because their great strength makes them too dangerous? Registering also meant that in order to use their powers, the superhumans had to work for the government. Should geniuses be forced to either work for the government or not use their genius at all? (Composers can't compose for personal pleasure, writers can't write, scientists have to either work at government labs or at McDonalds) Should anyone who can lift over 400 lbs. be forced to work for the government or else it will be illegal for them to exercise or lift weights so they can't get even stronger? The problem is, we're not talking about just "being dangerous"... we're talking about people with firepower equivalent to entire batallions, mind-readers, etc. People who are infinitely more dangerous than any "talent" or "skill" will ever make you. Do we register weapons? Yes. Do we legislate devices that can be used to violate another person's privacy? Yes. Once a weapon is registered, do we have legal punishments if that weapon is used in an illegal fashion? Yes. Once it is known that someone can tap phones or read emails, are they monitored to make certain they don't do it in violation of another's rights? Yes.
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Post by andyman on Jan 28, 2012 21:36:45 GMT -5
I'd be against registration, and here is why. Should geniuses be forced to register because they are smart enough to get away with murder? Should anyone who can lift over 400 lbs. be forced to register because their great strength makes them too dangerous? Registering also meant that in order to use their powers, the superhumans had to work for the government. Should geniuses be forced to either work for the government or not use their genius at all? (Composers can't compose for personal pleasure, writers can't write, scientists have to either work at government labs or at McDonalds) Should anyone who can lift over 400 lbs. be forced to work for the government or else it will be illegal for them to exercise or lift weights so they can't get even stronger? The problem is, we're not talking about just "being dangerous"... we're talking about people with firepower equivalent to entire batallions, mind-readers, etc. People who are infinitely more dangerous than any "talent" or "skill" will ever make you. Do we register weapons? Yes. Do we legislate devices that can be used to violate another person's privacy? Yes. Once a weapon is registered, do we have legal punishments if that weapon is used in an illegal fashion? Yes. Once it is known that someone can tap phones or read emails, are they monitored to make certain they don't do it in violation of another's rights? Yes. I do not agree that everything our government currently does is right. Why do we register weapons? Don't we have the right to bear arms? No one violates privacy more than the government itself. My Jewish ancestors had to register that they were Jewish. This was used to rob them of wealth and their lives. This was done because Jews were a dangerous vermin that was a parasite on the world. At least that's what the governments told their people. Through propaganda many believed Jewish people were the world's greatest danger. Captain America (really fit guy who can throw a shield) - DANGEROUS! make him register Spider-Man (a dude who can walk on walls and lift a small bus) - DANGEROUS! make him register Hulk - superstrong green guy DANGEROUS! make him register Albert Einstein (creater of theory used to create the atom bomb) - DNA says he's human...no need to registrer Adolf Hitler (influential speaker talks countries into persecuting and summarily executing their neighbors) - DNA says he's human. no need to register. Registration appears to mean "guilty because you are who you are". I prefer "guilty until proven innocent". I prefer "freedom", even though freedom may not be the safest option, it is the only option that ensures freedom. Registration may protect you from the superhuman next door but puts at the end to your superhuman neighbor's freedom. Those who register live as the government sees fit for them to live and points a gun at them to make sure they behave... or else maybe they will put them on a train to a concentration camp. If you don't believe that's where registration leads, consider Germany during World War II. Note: I'm currently listening to Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand on CD which has me thinking a lot about this particular subject.
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Post by WildKnight on Jan 29, 2012 7:15:57 GMT -5
I do not agree that everything our government currently does is right. Why do we register weapons? Don't we have the right to bear arms? No one violates privacy more than the government itself. ;D Honestly? I couldn't agree more (and I think anyone on this board who knows my politics will back that). In the real world, the government is wildly out of control, and everything you said is true. That said, "is has no relation to ought", as they say, and I'm speaking from the perspective and assumption that the Marvel Universe is already akin to our own in that the Federal Government has assumed several unonstitutional, arguably fascist powers unto itself in the name of "the common good" and the Registration policy is a continuation of those existing behaviors, not a sudden 180 in policy. I guess what I'm saying is; I'm not defending Registration from an idealistic standpoint, but from a realpolitik stance. Thumbs up on Atlas Shrugged, by the way. Rand was not a great writer, but she was a great thinker. Once you're done listening to it, you might consider checking out the movie (of which only Part 1 is out so far)
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Post by andyman on Jan 29, 2012 10:11:58 GMT -5
I saw part one. The movie, the Fountainhead and a biography of Ayn Rand is what got me to borrow pert II from the library in CD form. (A little something for me to listen to on my daily work commute.)
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Post by PROTOJ on Jan 29, 2012 16:08:41 GMT -5
Anti-registration all the way. I'm not against them having a government run group of superhero elite that in addition to saving the world and what-not could perhaps help police the superhuman community but I don't think all super-heroes should work for the government. I think the whole 50 state initiative was a great idea but I think it should've been a choice of free will not an ultimatum saying "Register or we'll lock you up in an other-dimensional prison."
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Post by WildKnight on Jan 29, 2012 16:20:49 GMT -5
Anti-registration all the way. I'm not against them having a government run group of superhero elite that in addition to saving the world and what-not could perhaps help police the superhuman community but I don't think all super-heroes should work for the government. I think the whole 50 state initiative was a great idea but I think it should've been a choice of free will not an ultimatum saying "Register or we'll lock you up in an other-dimensional prison." Just for clarification; it wasn't "register or we'll lock you up." The ultimatum was that if you refused to register, you couldn't be a costumed hero. You were free to go about your ordinary life without constraint.
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Post by mrmackadocious on Jan 29, 2012 17:07:06 GMT -5
I say pro because I consider them like cops or soldiers just squared in that they would need training to do their job properly otherwise any clown with lasers out of his eyes could run around and screw stuff up. We train cops and we train soldiers, we shouldn't give heroes a pass.
However if somebody tried to pull the junk that Stark tried in the war, I probably would hit him in the head with a shield too. Still makes the position wrong.
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Post by kito on Jan 30, 2012 9:15:17 GMT -5
If I were a normal human, I absolutely would have supported registration, and I can't see any reasonable argument for non-costumed type to do otherwise. Unregulated heroes simply caused too much damage and suffering over the years. If I were a hero? No way on Earth would I register. Trusting the U.S. Federal Government (any government, really) is right up there near the top of list of incredibly stupid things one can do. I would say I stand the exact same. if normal of cores i want them registered hell i would even want to know the general location they live to be able to stay away form there knowing there will be collateral Damage. And as a Hero/Villein I would never Register. Because it would be to costly if 1. super villain gets the files. 2. government tells me what to do or they kill my family. (witch I am sure they would) Al tho I found the full civil war pointless in the end and am surprised the government would even try in the first place. i know there hand was kinda forced but it easily could have backfired in huge ways. I mean in molecule man had to register(witch he would although not a hero is is still a super powered person trying to live my the law) the Us would now have a register power over matter. how would that not start a war? or worse.
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