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Post by kxjubilee on Jun 18, 2006 21:13:16 GMT -5
This seems to be a huge issue with some people so I feel I should put my two cents into helping solve it. What if you could add 1 durability for only adding more energy up to your durability. This would mean if you had a durability of 3 you could spend 3 more white stones to get an energy durability of 6. Though when you lose 1 health you also lose 1 of the durability that you use for just energy. So if you only have 3 health and 4 energy durability (only bought one extra) and you lost 1 stone of health then you would only regenerate the normal amount, though if you had 3 health and 5 energy durability and lost one stone then you would regenerate health as if you had 3 energy.
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Post by Neros on Jun 18, 2006 23:51:27 GMT -5
Theres allready been made a discusion about energy problems on this board, where there where suggested a rather good house rule... Not to mention i dont completely understand what you are saying. murpg.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=revisions&action=display&thread=1138668721So you are saying add 1 durability for only adding more energy to your health... When buying a durability of 3, you can spend 3 white stones extra to get a energy durability of 6 (whats a energy durability?). And when i lose a health, i lose a durability i use for energy. Wha? Durability/health determines how much energy you regenerate per panel... Seems like what you are suggesting is that it just removes some of your max energy... And the exampel with the 3 Health and 4 energy Durability dosent make sense to me. Im sorry, but im getting the feeling that you either dont completely know how the game works, or you are suggesting a rather radical change. A more organized post with more detail and exampels might help out. I hope i dont sound like a bastard posting this, but im glad you are allready trying to help out in the Rules section, but i am either misunderstanding what you are saying (pretty sure about that) or you misunderstood how the game works.
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Post by kxjubilee on Jun 19, 2006 1:53:24 GMT -5
I apologize my last post may not have been as clear as I thought it was. Ok round two
The post you gave a link to changes how characters buy energy by splitting the cost of health and energy. My system will add another ability that is in part taken from the current Durability ability. For now I will call this new ability Stamina (here in lies where my last attempt failed.) This new ability will take the value of Durability to start. Now for the cost of one character creation white stone you add 1 level to your stamina till it is a maximum of Durability X2. This means that this table is true:
Durability Max Stamina 1 2 2 4 3 6 4 8 5 10 6 12 7 14 8 16 9 18 10 20
This new stamina stat acts as the Durability stat for nothing more then Max Energy and Energy Regeneration. So a character with a Durability of 3 but a Stamina of 6 would have 18 energy and regenerate 6 energy at the end of every page. A character with say 3 Durability and 4 Stamina would have 12 Energy and regenerate 4 stones at the end of the page. This means that Stamina now takes over everything energy related that Durability did. So your max energy becomes Stamina X3 and you regenerate 1 energy per stamina at the end of each page.
Now let us look at damage handling. If a character has a durability of 5 and a stamina of 10 and they took a white stone of health they would lose 2 stamina stones. This is one stamina stone for the health stone as well as one of the extra stamina stones that they bought. This equates out to each health stones = 2 Stamina stones.
Now let's look at if this character would have only bought 3 extra stamina stones. They have a Durability of 5 and a stamina of 8. Now they lose 1 health stones and they still lose 2 stamina. This is because they remove 2 stamina stones till they only have the stamina from their normal Durability. This means that when they have taken 3 health stones worth of damage they have 2 Durability and 2 Stamina. If they take another health stone of damage they would only lose 1 stamina. This is why only the extra stamina bought would be the black stones. For every white health stone you lose 1 black energy until there is no more to remove.
Now to healing: You add the extra stones of stamina in the same order you removed them. This means our 5 Durability 8 Stamina character who took 4 Stones of Damage would rest for 24 hours and get only one White Health stone back. However every 24 hours of the next 72 that they rest they get one White Health stone and one extra Stamina stone.
This system allows you to get up to twice the normal energy and regeneration, but still leaves the normal system intact. Your white Health stones also double as your original Stamina stones, and you use black stones or another new color to represent your extra stamina.
Now if you buy the intelligence based energy this option cost 2 white creation stones per extra stamina and then the max energy is stamina X2 and the base stamina becomes your intelligence and you don’t lose any stamina with your white stones health.
I hope this is clearer then it was before.
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Post by jimforce on Jun 19, 2006 11:24:37 GMT -5
My two cents...and I apologize if this is not in line with what you're talking about.
Durability is the measure of your physical ability to absorb any shit kicking that might be leveled against you. Energy is essentially the Stamina score you speak of. That's why some Actions etc. take away red stones instead of white ones. It simulates winding you without actually damageing you. If you wanted to play a character that has lot's of energy, but not that huge of a physique, you could always take the option where your Energy is based on Int rather than Dur.
I've found that as soon as you start adding new scores and Abilities to simulate what existing rules already provide for it becomes a slippery slope. Soon your whole campaign is house rules. When making a house rule or inventing a stat or anything, always follow the golden rules:
1)Does an existing rule already cover this? -if so, then you don't need to make one up -if not, try to find out why it wasn't covered
2)Do I really understand the rule I'm chageing? -if so, keep going! Change away! -if not, do some more homework before inventing anything
3)Does this change benefit anyone more than anyone else? -if your change benefits the players more than the NPCs, then it's likely not balanced -if it benefits the NPCs more than the PCs, it likely isn't fair -if it benefits everyone equally (from a rules standpoint, not a clarity standpoint) then it likely isn't necessary...adding one to everyones scores doesn't do anything but amp up the whole world equally.
Sorry if I don't understand, but like Neros I'm confused. What exactly do you use the Stamina stones for? Is this just so you can do more each round? Take more damage and use more energy? Keep in mind, that if you do it for one charcter, you have to do it for all the characters...and then all the NPCs and PCs have more Health and more Energy...and you're back to square one without gaining any advatage but making the rules set a little more murky.
Sorry for my ramble...I'm still confused what the black stones are doing. It just seems like a way to do more every round and heal quicker. Wouldn't that cheapen the feel of the system? Doesn't it take away from the realism in that people in the real world *do* run out of energy?
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Post by jimforce on Jun 19, 2006 13:24:35 GMT -5
Would it be reasonable to have characters be able to take the option to have their Energy based on something other than Int? You could then take the Energy-based-on-Int option, but base your Energy on Agility or Speed or something like that. I think that would be a simpler and more elegant solution to the "Energy Crises".
I'm sure someone more familiar with the rules has reasons that wouldn't work...I'd love to hear them!
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Post by kxjubilee on Jun 19, 2006 13:54:42 GMT -5
The problem with taking Energy based off another ability is look at Cyclops, Jubilee, Storm, and Gambit; nothing higher then a 3 since that isn't their super power. Anyway it appears that my creation is much too complicated and or I lack the proper inteliginece to explain it fully. Therefore I have decided that it will be better for me to just leave the current rules alone.
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Post by Brainstem on Jun 19, 2006 21:07:24 GMT -5
There have been things tossed around about energy batteries, actually. The way I work it is as a modifier, CL=AN and you get AN*2 of stones for energy, that regen AN/panel. If a white stone of HP is lost, the pool will decrease, similar to how it functions for Int based energy.
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Post by jimforce on Jun 20, 2006 9:36:34 GMT -5
Yeah, I didn't think about the fact that some of these characters have scores too low (3) to bother basing their Energy off that. I understand now the issue you were trying to solve with the Black Stones. Now that I've read it over a couple times it makes more sense to me.
Cheers!
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Post by quixoteles on Jun 20, 2006 15:22:12 GMT -5
blow stuff up to knock over other stuff with jubilee, blind people, or find other ways of slowing people down as opposed to slugging it out with them. As cool a gambit is, remember he's a thief, sneak on people and suprise them by bombing them out. Cyclops is shooting coherent light out of his eyes, he will always get the highest action order when not in close combat, don't allow people to get into close combat, and when they do, quietly place one stone in speed and 8 stones in eye shots; then call for knockback. I'm sorry, but there are some fights that Jubilee cannot get into, she's not meant for then, omega redd is dangerous to anybody, keep her away from omega red, she's out classed. Pick the battles and make hooks for fights that you can do. If you really need to fight omega red then get packets of x2 damage +4 plastic explosives and detonate it with fireworks save your energy for hiding. The problem with the energy crisis is always the same. Don't get into slugfests. Fight the fights your character knows how to fight.
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Post by thepirateking on Jun 20, 2006 15:45:23 GMT -5
Bravo!! nicely put.
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Post by jimforce on Jun 20, 2006 16:36:19 GMT -5
Agreed. I still don't have alot of experience with this rules system...but I've seen the problem crop up time and time again in other RPGs. Someone will say, "Why *can't* I beat the tarrasque?" and a slew of house rules will be made up to allow a character to do just that (followed by a bunch more house rules introduced by the GM to try and balance out the mess he created), when all along they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Everyone runs out of energy/spells/actions that round eventually. I can't see why the same wouldn't apply to a supers game. One of the examples I saw in this thread (or the other one that was referenced...can't remember now) was Quicksilver. I think the poster was alluding to the fact that he should have more red stones than he has. While this seems like sound logic to begin with (after all...it takes alot of energy to run from New York to LA), it relates back to his Speed, not his stamina. Some characters might be able to run *longer* than Quicksilver (like Wolverine), but no where near as fast, so in the end the distance he travels in the same amount of time would be greater. Wolverine would still be jogging across Kansas while Quicksilver had his feet up in LA sipping an espresso. I suppose the term "power gaming" sounds funny when applied to a super powered campaign But, it is what it is.
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Post by kxjubilee on Jun 20, 2006 17:29:00 GMT -5
I will just say this. I wrote this rule not to allow power gaming. Maybe there might have been a better way to write it like: Spliting Stanima and Duribility having Stanima cost X2 and Duribility at X1. I only wrote this to allow battles to become more impresive and more tactical. Obviously as you have all stated, from what I am reading, I failed to do so. I was just looking for a way to allow characters that can't benifit for inteligense based energy to gain more energy and regerate more as well. So I have failed in this, but then you have to fail from time to time. The reason I brought up Cyclops, Gambit, Jubilee, and storm is because I see them all as being more energy houses then they have duribility. I don't see them all as having double and that is why I wrote it the way it is writen.
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Post by jimforce on Jun 20, 2006 19:32:54 GMT -5
And I couldn't agree with you more! I'm not calling you a power gamer at all. There are charcters in the Marvel universe that display alot more power per panel than the rules allow for. I was just confused at first by the Black stones.
I think you've touched on an important house rule that should be instituted in most campaigns...I'm gonna try and work on something similar for my own games.
My Tarrasque point was merely to illustrate that at a certain point house rules are appeasing the player's needs and not the needs of the character per se.
Don't let my jaded D&D viewpoint discourage you from making your campaign work the way you want it to!
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Post by stevie on Jun 20, 2006 20:15:12 GMT -5
Modifiers are there. Most of us are in agreement that Cyclops should have some sort of targeting equivelant, and I think that Storms Mastery of Weather should be used to harness the weathers focus, not its sheer power. There are lots of oversights in the initial CADs, but the rules are in place for us to make our own characters, and amend the existing ones, for the most part.
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Post by beryl on Jun 23, 2006 18:39:38 GMT -5
Y'know, this comes up time and again. Energy woes. And I agree wholeheartedly that some characters should have lots of energy and low durability. Int-based energy does this, to a degree. Also, I just checked out that other thread, and that seems to work well, too (not sure what I think about it yet, though). And, as I've repeatedly mentioned on these boards (heh ^^;; ) there are some modifiers that exist that allow one to increase their energy and energy regen without raising durability. I'm a large fan of the latter idea and would in most cases prefer using things like those modifiers that work with the current system (with perhaps some minor tweaks) to redoing the Abilities from ground zero.
However, those modifiers I mentioned are really only meant to cover the flavor of having an energetic character without turning them into a beast that can soak up damage. There are many ways to make do with what you've got without trying to squeeze out more energy. As quixoteles points out, there are strategies to fighting that improve your effectiveness without requiring more energy.
Also, the GM needs to be watchful about stuff like this. Buying more energy might make sense for some characters, but as was mentioned... the game ceases to be fun if there's no danger of eventually running out of steam.
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