Attack versus Dur.

[vincentgold]

So I'm new to these boards, but I've been GMing for my friends for quite some time now.

Anyway, recently a question came up in play and I was hoping to get some more opinions on it.

Here's what happened. Two PCs got in an argument (in character) and one decided to attack the other. PC A, the one who was just attacked, responded in the next panel by firing his Ice Blast, with an attack versus Dur. to freeze advantage, at seven stones.

PC B has a Dur. of 4, so the obvious result was that he was frozen in place. However, PC B's player argued that he should be allowed to use his defensive stones (he had prescience) to dodge, since it didn't make sense for his character to stand there and allow a force blast to hit him, and a force blast that missed couldn't freeze him.

My question is, can he dodge? I mean, I see the logic behind moving, but if that's the case, then why spend +6 levels buying attack vs Dur. ?

Again, I'm new to the forum, so if my ramblings are in the wrong section or something then I apologize.

Thanks for your help.

[nuke]

I thought it was an attack versuses defenses, and then if it connects they are frozen for Durability minus level of attack in panels.
So a 7 freeze ray that connects a hero with 4 durability, means a 3 panel freeze out.

[elspazz]

I always though it targeted that specific ability's number, regardless of whether the character has ref. dodge, toughness, energy/mental/magical defense, etc.

I figured this because it is a +6 to the cost level and is one of the more exspensive advantages. Like you said - it wouldn't make sense to charge such an extreme price - then the player gets to throw all the nifty defense modifiers in...

Plus - the character getting hit doesn't have to "stand still and take it." The attack targets his durability - so you can describe it as the player is dodging around, avoiding the blast; but the other char is throwing so much ice his way that the other guy gets tired out, drops his guard, and is popped!

[Neros]

Step 1: Say you want to freeze a target
Step 2: Place stones for the attack
Step 3: Attack vs Defensive Stones (only stones like reflexive dodge, close combat and otehr movement based actions).
Step 4: If any damage is done, use the Durability of the target as resistance to freezing.

Its a completly normal force blast which dosent negate defense. Year toughness wouldent work here. But any attempt to get out of the way of the blast would.
So in the exampel, his defense (if movement based) would applie...

Or thats how i see freezing works.... By the way, welcome to the board vincent and its not in the wrong place... This is the Rule Discussion section

[elspazz]

Then why pay the exorbitant +6 to target specific abilities if the opponent gets to throw all their nifty little Defensive stone bonuses in the mix?

On pg. 40 the ability specifically says "Attack vs. Enemy Ability (as oppossed to vs. defensive stones)." Reflexive dodge, toughness, all the nifty specific defenses all add to "defensive stones."

I know targeting said characters 4 durability instead of their stacked 8 defense is cheap - but the advantage is +6 to cost level - it has a purpose for being expensive.

[thepirateking]

Problem here is on the attack naming part.
a freeze att vs ability shouldn't be a "force blast"
call it "Ice Age" attack where he freezes an object without emitting a "blast", like telekenesis.

[rennyn]

You are thinking of the wrong ability, elspazz.

There are two versions. One on page 40 of the core book, for +6. One in the X-Book page 53 for +3.

Elspazz: The one you are talking about is an Attack vs their Ability instead of defensive stones. This means it does normal damage, it does not disable. It is an awesome +6 bonus because it allows you to forever ignore all defensive stones, and just go against a (hopefully) low ability to do your damage.

What we are talking about, however, is the +3 Advantage from the X-Book. This is the only one that deals with disabling. And it specifically states that defensive stones are included.

The flavor would determine what sort of defensive stones get included. Area effect poison darts? Toughness but no Reflexive Dodge. An ice blast? Reflexive dodge but no Toughness.

Duration? Again it depends on the flavor.. I'd use the Mastery chart based on creating elements. Magnetism would be 1/panel to maintain imo. Ice until it melts (10 mins I think they say). Weather/wind? 1/panel. Concussive Force? Either 1 panel per stone that gets through, or 1 slot on the D&R chart per stone that get through, depending on if its 'basic' or perhaps a more extraordinary power they paid for.

Just to reiterate: The +3 advantage deals with disabling and counts defensive stones. The +6 advantage does NOT disable, and does normal red stones of damage based on the ability not defense.

To the OP:

My question is, can he dodge? I mean, I see the logic behind moving, but if that's the case, then why spend +6 levels buying attack vs Dur. ?

Disabling is +3 not +6. Yes he can dodge. And that's what Prescience is overpoweredly for

[nuke]

If it is the Mastery of Ice, like Iceman, it attacks defenses. If they paid a +6 and made their own attack and stated it attacks Duriblility, then it attacks Duribility. sorry didn't see that line, I apologize.

[vincentgold]

Ah. Thank you Rennyn, that makes a lot more sense.

[elspazz]

Yep, I'm a non-reading fool
I didn't know the advantage in discussion was the one in the X-Men guide.

Thanks!

[Brainstem]

rennyn said:

The one you are talking about is an Attack vs their Ability instead of defensive stones. This means it does normal damage, it does not disable. It is an awesome +6 bonus because it allows you to forever ignore all defensive stones, and just go against a (hopefully) low ability to do your damage.

Ok, so just as a clarification, how could you reason an attack is targetting an ability? I can understand something against Intelligence, as it can attack them mentally, but how could you reason that a Force Blast, as an arbitrary example, is only resisted by a character's Speed? I can understand that a character could only avoid it if they posess the physical ability to move out of its way, but I don't see how Toughness wouldn't help to prevent this damage.

Or does this mean that general pool defensive stones will help resist but any stones from the character's own reserve into defense won't count? But then with this in mind, why is it really worth +6? I can see it being worth maybe +3, considering some characters will have a low stat for some abilities, but that basically gives enemies a kind of advantage as they now no longer need to put anything into defense. Defense is already covered, so things that would go into defense now go toward taking out the distraction.

[rennyn]

Its worth +6 because there is essentially nothing that your opponent can do to resist it.

How could you say speed? Well, perhaps you're a master of Kinetics or Magnetism. Your force bolt from this power first forces their body to come to a stop, and then once it is stopped starts stopping the very molecules of the body, causing internal injuries or whatever you want.

You could make it for almost every stat, making it work with the proper flavor is the person's job who is buying the +6. But I definitely think it is worth +6. You could have 50 stones in defense and they'd still only need to worry about your ability.

[beryl]

I'd like to point out that no advantage would be necessary if we're talking about a Mastery of Ice, as the Ice Blast bought through a mastery has the option to "attack vs. Durability to petrify, freeze, encase in Ice, but not kill."

It then goes on to say, "Succeeds if any damage occurs, duration = 1 panel/stone of damage".

That would mean that in the case of Mastery of Ice, Neros is correct.