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Post by piratespice on Aug 23, 2006 13:03:17 GMT -5
A good point, but most GMs aren't physicists, and won't necessarily understand that (myself included). As for "normal" fire damage not going above 4...I'm not sure where you're getting that. I assume you're looking at the "burning building" entry for R 4 Environmental Damage. But also take a look at the "Firestorm" under R 9 Environmental Damage. That's not even considering fire damage from supers. Pyro, for instance, can deliver a 12 stone flame attack. 12 stones is nothing to scoff at, and most Energy Defenses couldn't completely stop it. But an immunity just brushes it off.
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Post by Neros on Aug 23, 2006 13:19:04 GMT -5
Hmmm... Iceman has Mastery of Cold, but he is still able to manipulate ice. So would a Mastery of Heat be able to control fire (and vise versa).
He is also immune to the effects of cold, but then would he be immune to ice? (i personally would say no, but just asking the question since he would be a good exampel since cold/Ice is seen as the opposite of heat/fire).
And Pirate, for the rule you said you used for Immune to Element, do i understand you correctly when im assuming its not immune but just resistant???
hmmmmmm.... I like that Rule:
Resistance to Element: +1. AN# as Defense vs Element
Immune to Element: +2. Well, immune... Or should this be a +3??
BUT wouldent it then just be cheaper/better to buy a Energy Defense modifier (maybe even call it: "Element" Defense and get a discount on it).
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Post by Beacon on Aug 23, 2006 13:19:09 GMT -5
Yeah, but that's just the point. Normal fire damage doesn't get any higher than 4! Immunity to fire may be immunity to heat, but not more than a certain limit (like that resistance you suggested). At some point (Before 300 stones) normal heat becomes something more and you'll have to deal with things like plasma and radiation. Right, even if we’re just taking about a “resistance” of 4* then we still have enough to waltz through a burning building (which is really the most fire you’re likely to have to deal with unless you’re going around picking fights with the Fantastic Four**). You get all that plus transforming into fire, create/manipulate fire, a 2x force blast, a nova blast, and a flight discount for less than some people here want to charge for just the immunity. *On that note: Just buying a defense modifier of four stones against ALL energies, not just fire/heat, will only cost you two white stones during character creation. If anything my suggestion of five stones is too excessive. **And then the fire is the least of your problems. |
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Post by powerfull on Aug 27, 2006 13:51:37 GMT -5
Minor immunity, normaly 3 stones, maby 5 because it's quite common, but that's about it. Perhaps immunity to fire for 3, and immunity to heat in general for 5 (although this is silly from a scientific standpoint, since what we call fire is just superheated gasses, and you couldn't be immune to fire without also being immune to heat and vice versa). So you could survive in the heart of the sun. SO WHAT? It's an immunity against a single (fairly common, but single non the less) form of energy attack! Why is it unbalancing to have a character that could step into a volcano?? How likely is it for something like that to happen in a game??? And how excactly does it hurt gameplay to be able to do so with a 5 stone power? You can get revive self instant for 15 stones for god's shake and always be at full health by next pannel!
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Post by pgholland on Aug 27, 2006 14:00:08 GMT -5
Well no because that wouldn't work in a volcano or the sun because you would die as soon as you came back- immunity to Fire should be at least 8, its common, and is effectively an immunity to heat as well, plus fire is extremely damaging!
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Post by powerfull on Aug 27, 2006 14:07:38 GMT -5
I didn't mention the revive instant ability for the volcano and sun examples, I mentioned it because it is so much more powerful than immunity to fire and will come in play a thousand times more often. And obviously being immune to heat alone wouldn't save you from the sun either (not because of plasma, which could also be considered heat, but because of the atomic explosions.  ) |
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Post by pgholland on Aug 27, 2006 14:12:03 GMT -5
Well the radiation's true, but Plasma doesn't really work on the same principles as heat- it has so much energy i believe it just breaks down molecular bonds, so not really heat either. But i still think its more than a minor 3 stone invulnerability because of the prebelance and destructive potential of fire- it is after all a x2 force blast in a mastery.
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Post by bawonsamdi on Aug 27, 2006 16:07:58 GMT -5
It seems that a lot of people take it too seriously here. Posts lack of "IMO", "IMHO" or "in my game" ...
I understant that anybody has an opinion about how pricing "Fire Imunity" but that's just that: an opinion. It's not like some ground truth: "the sky is blue, water is wet and fire imunity cost 6".
So, My Humble Opinion here:
- when it comes to find the good price for such invulnerability, you can't only consider its usefullness. You have also to keep in mind the cost of other means that can achieve similar goals. Hence you keep a (more or less) balanced game. For 9 stones you can have an Energy Defense of 8 that give you a very effective defense against fire (not yet invulnerability but not far from it) and against any other form of energy attack. And for fewer stones you can have a low level mastery of fire with the invulnerability option. So when i see somme people saying that the fire invulnerability should cost 8, 10 or even 12, i am very surprised.
- i don't think that such invulnerability is so usefull (and must cost so much). Natural fires don't do a lot of damages and a mid-level energy defense can do the trick (with a much wider range of applications like i said). And super-beings using fire based attacks are not so common. There are a lot of online campaign on this board and, among them, how many times did superheroes or supervillains had come to face such hazard ?
- but i agree that the range of such power need to be clearly defined betwwen the GM and the player. Are we talking about heat ? Flames ? Lava ? Plasma ? In my game a Fire Invulnerability should cover: mundane fires, attacks using fire as element (forceblast, fireworks, mastery of fire, ...), magicaly summoned flames (except maybe if such fire is clearly stated as uncommon like, for exemple, Hellfire) and heated object like lava. Plasma is clearly another state of the matter and thus is out of range of a simple fire invulnerability.
anyway thank you to everybody for expressing his opinion. When i started this thread, i didn't expected that it will trigger such long discussion
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Post by Beacon on Aug 27, 2006 19:49:16 GMT -5
Well once we get back into the “Fire vs. Heat” debate we’re also back to the “Defense vs. Immunity”. At a certain point, defense against heat comes to include immunity to fire. As others have said, at a certain point fire ceases to become “fire” and becomes something else.
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Post by Neros on Aug 28, 2006 4:49:53 GMT -5
hmm... This is just a thought, but know that i look at it, if Energy Defense works against any type of energy (fire, heat, radiation, proton, plasma, electricity, ect), shouldent it cost more? Mental Defense only works against mental attacks and it has the same cost level.
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Post by Beacon on Aug 28, 2006 12:14:23 GMT -5
hmm... This is just a thought, but know that i look at it, if Energy Defense works against any type of energy (fire, heat, radiation, proton, plasma, electricity, ect), shouldent it cost more? No. We’ve already talked about how many “different” forms of energy (fire, plasma, ect) are just heat at different strengths. You don’t take the resistance to kinetic energy aspect of toughness and chop it up into little pieces (resistance to getting slapped, resistance to gunshots, resistance to getting punched, resistance to getting poked in the eye, resistance to getting kneed in the groin, ect) so why do the same with Energy Defense? |
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Post by vicsage on Aug 28, 2006 18:25:02 GMT -5
"…then this power is 16w. For a stone less you could just get Mastery of Fire with an AN of 4 and the same options as the Human Torch. Why on earth would anyone ever be willing to pay 16w for just an immunity when you could get that and a lot more for less?"
Because sometimes it's about designing the character you've thought up rather than designing the more powerful character just because you can. Something we call...role-playing!
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Post by Beacon on Aug 28, 2006 19:00:34 GMT -5
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Post by vicsage on Aug 29, 2006 12:00:30 GMT -5
I see. I guess I approach design differently--I've never had any difficulty making a character I wanted within 40 stones. In fact, I usually have about 10 to 15 stones left over when I'm done.
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