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Post by Manticore on Jun 9, 2012 9:06:40 GMT -5
Yeah, Alan Moore is weird. But while he was working in comic books he got screwed over by both DC and Marvel and some of the other big companies. (In fact, most comic book creators over the past few decades were exploited by the companies they worked for.)
It doesn't matter if DC or Marvel offer Alan Moore a big pile of cash; he refuses to have anything to do with companies that treated him really badly in the past. He's got his pride. I can respect that.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 9, 2012 9:07:04 GMT -5
Ah no. We're not gonna do the whole mud flinging thing are we? I'll assume we disagree and leave it at that. I'm not flinging mud, I'm just exasperated with the view that any work of fiction is so amazingly well done that it achieves sacred status and should never be touched again for any reason. The problem with the Star Wars Prequels, the Conan pastiches, and the Christopher Tolkien Middle Earth stuff isn't that those original characters and settings should never have been touched again... the problem is that they were crap. In order for future products to be created, there has to be money. In order for there to be money, there has to be profit. Profit is not evil, nor is it an inherently evil motivation. The fact that DC has intentionally never taken Watchmen out of print, even though doing so has cost them profit at times, in order to keep the rights from reverting to Moore and Gibbons is arguably evil, though.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 9, 2012 9:08:48 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if DC or Marvel offer Alan Moore a big pile of cash; he refuses to have anything to do with companies that treated him really badly in the past. He's got his pride. I can respect that. I can't. It's childish. If he actually cared about his "art", he would want to provide it to the largest audiences possible, and that means working with Marvel or DC. Instead, he cares about his ego and, let's face it, his checkbook (he himself even admitted as much with his, albeit hilarious, Slurpee Cup comment)
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Post by pgholland on Jun 9, 2012 9:11:42 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if DC or Marvel offer Alan Moore a big pile of cash; he refuses to have anything to do with companies that treated him really badly in the past. He's got his pride. I can respect that. I can't. It's childish. If he actually cared about his "art", he would want to provide it to the largest audiences possible, and that means working with Marvel or DC. Instead, he cares about his ego and, let's face it, his checkbook (he himself even admitted as much with his, albeit hilarious, Slurpee Cup comment) No, he is an arse, but if he cared about his art he wouldn't put it to the vultures that are the big companies. They are only interested in making money, so will re-hash, remarket and resell his work any way they can to make money without regard to what it should be. The smaller companies (and self-published works) are where the real art is. Even 2000AD is better than DC Marvel (and that has its 'money-spin' days)- from the perspective of respecting Artists wishes.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 9, 2012 9:14:02 GMT -5
They are only interested in making money, so will re-hash, remarket and resell his work any way they can to make money without regard to what it should be. He's not opposed to a prequel. Read his own words. He's opposed to it because he can't profit from it. He wants DC to let the rights revert to him so that he can sell Slurpee Cups.
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Post by Manticore on Jun 9, 2012 9:14:29 GMT -5
It doesn't matter if DC or Marvel offer Alan Moore a big pile of cash; he refuses to have anything to do with companies that treated him really badly in the past. He's got his pride. I can respect that. I can't. It's childish. If he actually cared about his "art", he would want to provide it to the largest audiences possible, and that means working with Marvel or DC. Instead, he cares about his ego and, let's face it, his checkbook (he himself even admitted as much with his, albeit hilarious, Slurpee Cup comment) I didn't actually say that creators should care more about the "art" (maybe I implied it, but that's not what I meant). I know that if I was treated badly by someone (or by a company), I wouldn't want to work with that person (or persons) again no matter what. Because if I did I'd probably end up getting screwed over. I don't think that's a childish attitude to have.
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Post by pgholland on Jun 9, 2012 9:16:12 GMT -5
And why shouldn't he profit from his own work? He created it? Why should the big-wigs at DC profit from it?
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 9, 2012 9:19:17 GMT -5
And why shouldn't he profit from his own work? He created it? Why should the big-wigs at DC profit from it? *points up* I already said, DCs choice to keep him from profiting is arguably evil (Lawful Evil though, because they are holding to the written word of their contract with him explicitly). The point is that he doesn't care about his "art"... he cares about his "pocketbook" no matter how much he attempts to use his "art" as a shield to defend his childish decision making* * - Full disclosure, I don't even really believe he's being childish, I believe he uses his "hatred" for DC and Marvel in a cynical desire to manipulate the sensibilities of comic fans, who are for some reason inclined to attack the corporate interest and defend the "artist"
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Post by Silentking Alpha on Jun 9, 2012 9:21:48 GMT -5
Because we have been brainwashed to think corporations are evil and are exploiting "artists" everywhere.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 9, 2012 9:26:26 GMT -5
Because we have been brainwashed to think corporations are evil and are exploiting "artists" everywhere. They ARE exploiting artists everywhere. They're in business. To make profit. There are two kinds of exploitation, though. The guys who created Superman, and Jack Kirby? Those guys got legitimately screwed. Deals were made with them, and then intentionally broken. Alan Moore? He signed a contract assuming that Watchmen would eventually go out of print because all other comics eventually go out of print. He knew full well (or should have, since it was written in the contract) that DC could, in theory, not take Watchmen out of print, and that would be their right. From where I sit... DC comics screwed Siegel and Shuster. Alan Moore screwed Alan Moore.
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Post by pgholland on Jun 9, 2012 9:32:25 GMT -5
Because we have been brainwashed to think corporations are evil and are exploiting "artists" everywhere. They ARE exploiting artists everywhere. They're in business. To make profit. There are two kinds of exploitation, though. The guys who created Superman, and Jack Kirby? Those guys got legitimately screwed. Deals were made with them, and then intentionally broken. Alan Moore? He signed a contract assuming that Watchmen would eventually go out of print because all other comics eventually go out of print. He knew full well (or should have, since it was written in the contract) that DC could, in theory, not take Watchmen out of print, and that would be their right. From where I sit... DC comics screwed Siegel and Shuster. Alan Moore screwed Alan Moore. And need I point out DC apologised to Siegel and Shuster and even recompensed one of them (I forget which but he was 90 at the time). Alan Moore just understands it and I feel is quite right to attack the big 2- if they can't stand it, then they don't deserve to be as big as they are.
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Post by Silentking Alpha on Jun 9, 2012 9:32:43 GMT -5
Did Alan Moore even expect his comic to be such a huge hit? No matter what, Alan Moore did fail badly here.
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 9, 2012 9:40:25 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with Alan Moore bagging on DC and Marvel. All I'm saying is; 1) I believe he's doing it for cynical reasons, not artistic ones 2) By his own statement, he's concerned with profits, so his complaint with regard to Watchmen is monetary, not philisophical 3) When you sign a contract with a corporation, you should always bear in mind that they are in fact a corporation, that their purpose is in fact to make money, and that it's foolish to assume that if the contract allows them to do otherwise, they're going to forego their own profits in favor of your profits. At the end of the day I think that Watchmen is a good, but overrated, piece of work, Alan Moore is an arrogant blowhard, and DC is a corporation that has done and will continue to do what corporations do. As is so often the case, I don't think there is a "good guy" or a "bad guy" here... and the guy who wrote Watchmen should be more cognizant of that fact And I'll stand by my initial point; there is nothing in the comic book world that is so sacred that it should never have a prequel or a sequel. Nothing. The comic book companies should recognize that the quality of those sequels and prequels matters, but they don't, and they probably won't. Luckily, nobody can force you to buy the stupid things.
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Post by Silentking Alpha on Jun 9, 2012 9:58:54 GMT -5
I was pretty much forced to read stupid things...
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Post by WildKnight on Jun 9, 2012 10:09:42 GMT -5
I was pretty much forced to read stupid things... If you're in school; yeah, that's the way of things. If you're not in school... I'm concerned that someone is locking you up and forcing you to read bad fiction.
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