King of the Fighters (Marvel Heroic)

[takewithfood]

Jun 22, 2012 10:40:28 GMT -5 WildKnight said:

Yes, I get all of that.

Here's what I'm saying. All of those investigations you've just described, in Marvel Heroic, are going to boil down to dice rolls with the "Crime" Specialty.

The Marvel Heroic system is basically tailored to mimic the comic book style, wherein "investigation" is (usually) handled in a few brief panels, rather than an extended series of scenes. In fact, the structure of the game is such that typically, the only purpose of "investigating" anything is to set up an Asset for your next Action Scene.

You seem to be suggesting that an investigation sequence has to be handled in a transition, and perhaps that action scenes are necessarily only about combat. If that's the case, I disagree: I don't see why an investigation sequence can't be done in an action scene.

Let's say you decide to check your missing friend's house for clues; the GM can either decide that you know about the key hidden under the mailbox because you're that close, or maybe a roll can be used to find it. If you don't find it, maybe you slip in through a window (again, perhaps with a roll of some kind), or just kick the damn door down because who has time for anything else when your friend has gone missing? If you have a cool power like shrinking or teleportation or phasing, or some sort of helpful SFX, you're in luck.

Once you're inside maybe a roll can help determine if you find anything - or, if you have a more specific, clever idea, such as searching through his mail or checking his answering machine, maybe you'll find a clue automatically. Or maybe you give up on the locked house and try something else - go ask his co-workers if they know anything. That can be a whole act, easily, or it can even be a whole event. I don't see anything restricting you from doing this sort of in-depth intrigue-oriented kind of game.

Specifically in the context of a fighting game, you're actually a kickass martial artist, and so is your friend; you met at the same school, even, and go way back.

Let's say you break into his house or his office or whatever and find out that he's been invited to an international underground fighting tournament - maybe he got a cryptic message in the mail, or there's a message on his machine. Did he go to participate, and if so, why didn't he tell you? If he didn't go, what happened to him? Perhaps the only way to find out (and advance the plot, heh) is to find a way to get your name on the tournament list, too.

A transition scene can be about you packing your sh*t and getting on a plane to some appropriately exotic locale where the first fight is being held, and the mundane stuff about checking into a hotel and getting a good night's sleep. Then in the next action scene, maybe you follow a lead to a seedy bar in some gang turf where you have to beat information about the tournament out of some gang in a glorious bar room martial arts brawl. Finally you find out the exact time and location of the first fight, and decide to crash the party.

Cue a transition scene where you bandage your wounds and head to the first fight. There you find out that your friend is a no-show, and you manage to talk your way into taking his place - maybe you even assume his identity, forcing you to keep your cover throughout the rest of the tournament.

The third Action scene is the proper climactic fight up against a serious opponent who is a student of some other insane kind of supernatural martial arts. Big one-on-one battle, and you barely manage to win in the end, despite being pretty rusty (this rustiness wears off as you get in more fights and earn more XP to spend on your data file). This advances you to the next round, and you're given information about the location of the next fight. End of event.

The next event picks up at the second fight, where you meet many other contestants (the other PCs); between bouts you find out that they all have their own reasons for joining the tournament - some straight-forward (prize money, fame, etc) some more personal like your own (revenge, want to take over the organization, etc). It's a dangerous tournament and you hear rumours that some other competitors are not above taking their opponents out outside of the ring, so the lot of you decide to form a truce and watch each other's backs for as long as you can, knowing that if all goes well, one day you'll inevitably be pitted against one or more of them, adding an undercurrent of tension to the mix. Etc etc, there's your game.

I'd love to run something like that.

~TWF

[WildKnight]

An "action" sequence, by definition, has to have some sort of conflict. Searching your friends house is if there is nobody trying to stop you (directly or indirectly) is a transition scene.

Look at the Event Structure described in the book, and the Mini-Event provided with it. An Action Scene requires some sort of immediate opposition.

[takewithfood]

Jun 22, 2012 11:52:46 GMT -5 WildKnight said:

An "action" sequence, by definition, has to have some sort of conflict. Searching your friends house is if there is nobody trying to stop you (directly or indirectly) is a transition scene.

Look at the Event Structure described in the book, and the Mini-Event provided with it. An Action Scene requires some sort of immediate opposition.

Why play it that way when it's clearly less fun?

Besides, the book doesn't actually say what you think it does. Here are some quotes:

OM30: "In the MARVEL HEROIC ROLEPLAYING game, most of the action takes place in Scenes involving the heroes being challenged by some kind of opposition. Just like in the comics, the action is broken down into moments of decision, drama, and doom. Between these Action Scenes are Transition Scenes, when the players engage in exposition, recovery, or reflection."

OM33: "Action Scenes involve the characters doing something to drive the story along and move it forward. Transition Scenes connect Action Scenes together and are usually used to recover, gather information, or plan the next Scene."

OM34: "ACTION SCENES
Some Scenes are more investigatory in nature or revolve around more social or personal activity, but they are Action Scenes in their own right. A pitched battle across the frozen wastes of Jotunheim and a tense diplomatic meeting between agents of the Shi’ar and Kree empires are both examples of Action Scenes."

I think that last quote in particular makes it pretty clear that action scenes do not have to be about combat as long as there is opposition: basically, a way to fail that involves decision making and consequences for failure.

Figuring out a way to find clues as to your missing friend's whereabouts by breaking into his house or interrogating his co-workers or whatever else you come up with can absolutely be an action scene if you play it that way.

A locked house can be opposition - it's standing between you and what you need to know, and you'll have to do something about it. There are many potential ways to go about it (decisions to make), and consequences could vary from failing to find what you're looking for to making so much commotion that the neighbours call the cops on you. (You don't want the cops to find you breaking and entering the house of someone who has gone missing, do you?)

Questioning coworkers can be opposition too if they're evasive, don't have time to waste on you while they're at work, etc; you'll have to convince them to spill the beans one way or another.

If as the Watcher you decide that you don't want to go into detail here, or you just want to step back the challenge for some reason (turns out your friend gave you his spare key a long time ago, or whatever) then this can just be exposition as part of the plot hook: simply tell the player that they found out the friend is missing and he was in this tournament, and pick up the action scene in the bar fight. But it's a deliberate decision on the Watcher's part and it doesn't have to be either way; and know that if you skip out on the intrigue parts simply because they don't involve a fight of some kind, you're deliberately missing out on half the fun of the game.

There is nothing stopping you from putting detailed intrigue into Marvel Heroic game.

~TWF

[Dullahan]

TWF, why are you trying to argue with someone who agrees with you?

All he's saying is, something has to be opposing you, otherwise it isn't an Action scene.

Everything you just described has some form of opposition, in fact most of it has an actual person doing the opposing.

[takewithfood]

Because WK and I get paid by the post around here. ^__^

~TWF

[Dullahan]

Figured as much. ;D

[WildKnight]

Exactly.

An Action Scene requires opposition other than the Doom Pool. I would add (although it's admittedly not explicitly stated in the rules) that in order to be an Action Scene, there must be some possibility of taking Stress.

An "investigation" scene can be an Action scene if there is someone or something opposing you other than general dramatic tension. The example they give is that of a tense interrogation. In that instance, both characters are open to being "harmed." They clearly list "gathering information" under Transition scenes. IMO, the obvious difference is opposition.

Again, I would highly recommend that someone genuinely interested in using the Cortex system for something like Street Fighter or MK look into the Smallville rules (or possibly a hybrid of Smallville and Leverage)

[takewithfood]

Jun 22, 2012 13:08:40 GMT -5 WildKnight said:

An Action Scene requires opposition other than the Doom Pool.

Is this written in the book somewhere? Because I'm not seeing it, and may have just missed it; otherwise, it sounds like you're making this up.

Here's another quote, from OM 122:

"Typically, an Action Scene writeup gives you the information on the bad guy, threat, dire situation, or other obstacle that the heroes must confront or deal with."

I think breaking into a house can count as an "other obstacle" that the heroes have to deal with. I don't see why it has to be a person, and why it can't be just against the doom pool - especially if people (such as the police or a nosy neighbour) could potentially get involved.

And my other example that involves questioning people clearly involves people.

And besides, what's the harm in running it this way? Even if the rules say what you think they say, what's the harm in breaking them the way I suggested? What part of my example event doesn't work or isn't potentially fun? (Sort of a rhetorical question as I just wanted to get my view of the issue out for those interested.)

I really do hope to run a game like this in future. Too many ideas, so little time.

~TWF

[WildKnight]

Jun 22, 2012 13:18:47 GMT -5 takewithfood said:

And besides, what's the harm in running it this way?
~TWF

It screws up the games flow, and mucks up a tightly structured system. I play this system every Saturday, and I've played with a couple of otherwise good GMs who thought they could do exactly what you're suggesting.... it mucks up the resource structure in the game, sometimes severely.

To me, what you're basically arguing is that you SHOULD jam a round peg into a square hole just because it's small enough and you can make it fit... even though there are half a dozen square pegs in your immediate vicinity, and you haven't tried any of them. Yes, perhaps your idea can work, but it's never going to be as good at it as simply using something that's actually designed for it in the first place.

[takewithfood]

Care to give an example of how it mucks things up?

~TWF

[WildKnight]

Jun 22, 2012 13:43:42 GMT -5 takewithfood said:

Care to give an example of how it mucks things up?

~TWF

The game is based on a careful structure of action scene - transition scene - action scene (later, rinse, repeat), which directly affects things like the growth of the Doom Pool, the expenditure of Plot Points (and other resources, like Assets).

[takewithfood]

So that's a no on the example, eh? ^__^

~TWF

[WildKnight]

Jun 22, 2012 13:47:49 GMT -5 takewithfood said:

So that's a no on the example, eh? ^__^

~TWF

That was an example, just not a specific example.

The biggest problems we ran into when dealing with our two GMs who didn't want to stick to the way the system is intended was that the Doom Pool ended up being too easy to manipulate for the players. We quickly figured out that due to the fact that they were willing to run entire extended scenes where the only opposition was the Doom Pool, we could simply go pick a fight or something, force the GM to burn up the Doom Pool, and then go discover anything and everything we wanted as the poor GM rolled his d6, d8 Doom Pool to oppose us.

[takewithfood]

That explanation made no sense to me. Maybe it's just that I'm less experienced with the game with you, but you seem to be making a few assertions in here that I do not understand:

1. How does one just randomly pick a fight just for the sake of burning off the DP, and why does the Watcher not tell you go f*ck off when it's obvious that that's what you're doing?

2. Why does fighting some random guy burn off the DP?

3. In what way is rolling against a Watcher character significantly different than rolling against the DP, in terms of how it affects the size of the DP?

Let's go back to the example I gave earlier, for argument's sake. There are two potential paths: go try to break into your friend's house (rolls vs. the Doom Pool), or try to interrogate people who saw him last/on a regular basis prior to his disappearance (rolls vs. Watcher characters). It seems to me that you feel the former can ONLY be thought of as a transition scene, while the latter qualifies as an Action scene since it necessarily involves opposition from a character rather than just the DP. So, what's the difference in terms of how it affects the DP/PP?

I'm seriously sorry in advance if I'm just being a complete dunce here. My time spent playing the game with people who I didn't explain the rules to myself (and thus could have passed on my own misconceptions), or just with myself, is limited to playing in DK's game for about 10 posts.

~TWF

[WildKnight]

Your example is what I'm saying, yes. If you're only rolling against the Doom Pool, I don't feel it really qualifies as an Action Scene.

Rolling against the Doom Pool is different than rolling against Watcher Characters because the players always know what the Doom Pool is; it's easy to pick and choose when you roll against it.

Getting into a fight burns off the DP (sometimes) because the GM will use his DP to give his characters more of a fighting chance (note that "fight" here doesn't necessarily mean busting into a room and beating up everyone in the room. In point of fact one of the situations we encountered was almost identical to what you're talking about... we had two routes of Investigation to pursue, and we chose the the one that would involve interrogating the members of the Serpent Society because the Doom Pool was really big, and we figured that he'd burn off some DP to help them through the interrogation, making it that much easier to go through the files SHIELD had given us in the next scene, which would involve almost entirely rolling against the DP).

The GM doesn't just tell us to screw off because that's not good GMing.