D&R values

[mordencai]

I have noticed in the rules there are a rule of thumb when one use the D&R chart for lifting.... at page 12 in the rulebook, under the paragraph of "teaming up to do actions" it is stated:

Quote:
Sometimes putting two heads or strong backs together can solve a problem that neither could solve alone. The rule of thumb is that it takes Two character of the same Ability Number or Action Number to solve a problem that is one more Difficulty Level higher than either could solve on their own.
--

When I trying to use this "rule of thumb" on the D&R chart I find that this is not how the table is built...
Why is this? It would be really easy to actually make a weight table that would make sense of the rule of thumb... just use the base of 100 lbs and multiply this number for each value above with a multiplier of 2.... this would of course make Thor lift 15 "stones" instead of the normal 10... but everything would follow the same rule of thumb.....
any thoughts on why the table wasn't made as it was though in the rules how we should be using the team up rules?

[dorkknight23]

I'm not 100% sure I understand your argument, but here goes.

That is not exactly the spirit of the Team-Up rules, if I understand you correctly. It has nothing to do with the rulings on Difficulty and Resistance:

2 characters with a strength of 1 could lift the equivalent of a Difficulty 2 objects, 4 could lift a Difficulty 3 object, and so on. So, Thor's strength 10 is not the Strength of 10 Strength 1's, it's more like the Strength of 512 average (Strength 1) people.

So, in short, there's no need to change the strength chart. I think you're misreading that passage. The rule was built around the table, not the other way around.

[malice]

Also keep in mind some of the averages are a little off. I ran into it when writing myself up. I'm a pathetic little weakling, but even I can continue strenuous physical activity for 5 minutes, which is a durability of 2.

Other than that, I agree you may want to clarify a little.

[mordencai]

well.. let me be a little more specific...

the team up passage states the following:

--quote:
Sometimes putting two heads or strong backs together can solve a problem that neither could solve alone. The rule of thumb is that it takes Two character of the same Ability Number or Action Number to solve a problem that is one more Difficulty Level higher than either could solve on their own.
For example, if you want to lift something that weighs 4 stones (one ton on the D&R chart), two characters who can each lift 3 stones f 1,000 lbs.) could do the job together. Likewise, two characters with Technology of 7 could operate a machine with Difficulty Level of 7.
And the effects are cumulative. Four characters with Strength of 5 could lift as much as a character with a strength of 7 can lift.
The GM has to use common sense here. Sometimes you obviously can't combine efforts. Two players with a Speed of 4 can't combine efforts to run at a Speed of 5.
Let’s look at the example of trying to fly a Shi'ar spaceship (Difficulty: 7, Resistance: 60 per Panel). This would require a total output of 60 stones per Panel and a minimum Action Number of 7 in Technology or Vehicle Operation to be successful. So, in order to operate that spaceship, you will probably need many characters working together, with at least one of them having the required Action Number to overcome the Difficulty, and all of them putting in stones to overcome the Resistance each panel.
--end quote

To me this passage says that, in actions where you CAN combine efforts, two people with a Action Value of lets say 3 can together do an Action that would require an Action Value of 4.

This would mean that two people (with the same Action and Action value) working together will get a +1 on to overcome the Difficulty on the D&R chart.

This would have everything to do with the rulings of the Difficulty on the D&R chart... since the D&R chart is not construted to follow this "two people of the same value gets to do one higher difficulty" idea.

The D&R chart states for example that a strength of 4 can lift up to 2 tons. A strength of 5 can lift up to 5 tons. this is for example not a multiple of 2... rather its a multiple of 2.5 (5 tons / 2 tons = 2.5)
so to make sense of the table the rule of thumb should read "(2.5~) three people of the same Action value gets a +1 on the chart"

or one should change the D&R chart to actually follow the rule of thumb as stated. This would change Thor's strength to 15 if he would be able to lift the same amount as today... ~100 tons

[malice]

I understand your concern, but then again a strength of 3 "Olympian", can lift 1000lbs. Black Cat, Daredevil, Elektra, Bullseye, Kang, Kingpin, and Punisher ALL can lift 1000lbs.
MURPG serves out its badass in heroic proportions, always has. The combining efforts thing is exaggerated just like everything else to make players feel good about their characters and award teamwork.

[Scriptus]

mordencai i think you are being a little to logical for the game. remember these are comic book physics and the D&R chart is just a rule of thumb. i think the table was made the way it was so that everything fit in the base 10 scale. just for simplicity's sake.

Oh and P.S. glad to see you joined the board. Hope to see more of you around!

[mordencai]

Thank you Scriptus for your welcome.... and yes I might be a bit on the logical side hehe. I do really like Torg for example and I was wondering if murpg could have the same posibility...
I dont mind simplicity... but if there is a posibility to improve something one likes, I say why not... but for that to work I like to understand why things are created the way it is.

I have found Murpg to be a really nice system... but when I am looking through the forums and reviews that talks about Murpg, I come back to the point of view that many really like the system but the rules need a new edit and clearification, and that the endurance is king is a problem, and the whole regeneration part breaks the game...
So I ask myself if it need to be like that?

I have not yet found a real reason why the game text can't be the same as the chart... or the otherway around.

I'm here to discuss the rules... and maybe find new ways to improve the system...

[thanos]

I do not think that it needs to be improved. Real life examples are more than enough to show that two working together is more than twice as effective as just 1 person.

I used to work in a warehouse where I put boxes on shelves, off of pallets. To do 10 pallets would take upwards of 6 hours. However, if just 1 other person was helping out, we could 'throw' boxes more effectively and get a 6 hour job done in about 2.25 hours. Not only are you just basicly more effective, two people work off of each other keeping a faster pace. Going fast for 5 hours is beyond my durability, but going fast for 2 hours is within my ability. Knowing that the work is getting done fast keeps me working fast to get it done.

Lets take the example of lifting a large box 4 foot to a side(reg str 2). Me, the normal human, can lift that, but its pretty tough. Make the box weigh the same, but twice the size and getting a hand hold on it becomes impossible. TWO people on the other hand can lift that box with no problem and could lift the same 8 foot box even if it required a Str 3 just because they can get a handle on it. Most people invision lifting to do with arms and backs, but the legs are massively more powerful (normally) than either. Getting a good grip on one side of an object and lifting with the legs gives a lot more strength. Two people can get both their leg powers in on large objects, where as a single person is likely only to get back or arm power in.

[mordencai]

I agree with you thanos, in that two can do much more than one and that is what the rule of thumb says...

yet... the point I'm, seemingly poorly, is trying to make is that while the "base" rule a person reading in the beginning of the game book (where one starts to learn the system) is not how the D&R chart works...
In some sense the idea to keep the 100 lbs to 100 ton range within the 1 stone to 10 stones makes those with higher values to loose out some... If we take example of Thor with strength 10... in the D&R chart he has the same strength as (just as dorkknight23 said) 512 people with 1 in strength....
but if we look at the values a little we can see that if Thor can lift 100 tons then he actually would be lifting as much as 16384 persons with a puny strength of 1. That’s about 5 stones in difference!!....

I wonder this is the right place for this discussion... I thought that this was the "Rules Discussion" section of the Marvel Universe Roleplaying board... but everyone that replies seems to not want to discuss a rule.... its kinda weird for me... If you agree with the rules completely, then why are you replying on the "rules discussion" part of the board?

I just want to discuss a discrepancy I have found in the rules... is this the place for this or can anyone direct me to the right place?

[thanos]

OK. I think I am getting what you are getting at.

I do not think that either rule is incorrect or that they contradict each other as the Combining Rule refers and points to the D&R Chart and would be considered a Subordinate Rule because it is an exception.

[mordencai]

Thank you thanos!

May I ask you if you think a change, to the D&R chart so it would be follow the two can lift one more, would change the game too much? Would it break anything important?

[malice]

PirateSpice started a thread awhile ago that I can't find right now, but let me try to paraphrase or summarize what he said:

Ok, if you're in the rules discussion thread do us all a favor and never say 'the system is fine as it is' because obviously the people on the thread DON'T think its fine as it is or else they wouldn't be discussing things.

EDIT: I found the link:
[ftp]http://www.murpg.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=House&action=display&thread=1157474944[/ftp]

I agree with him and I'm sorry if I seemed dismissive before, I didn't mean to be an "it's fine as it is" guy. I agree with you that 512 strengths of 1 doesn't really equal a strength of 10, and I personally wouldn't allow something like that if I were GMing. It's just a little silly to let clownish things to take place. (You'll see me say "clownish" a lot when I'm describing PCs and GMs ignoring common sense.)

I think the solution to this could be found using the Leadership errata presented in the Avengers supplement as a basis. The errata states that you can't receive leadership stones from more than one person. I would personally cap the amount of people that can help do something based on their ability or action numbers, and furthermore rule out certain insane feats of teamwork like 20 strength 5 people pushing a building over.

I can't give you any solid guidelines right now because I think the GM has to rule it as he goes (and I'm in class, heh). For example 4 people could lift something large, but you can't get more than 2 people on a computer.

This is also discussed a couple threads away here:
[ftp]http://www.murpg.proboards19.com/index.cgi?board=House&action=display&thread=1171066457[/ftp]

Finally, I'll apologize again for seeming dismissive. There are a many occasions on these boards when a person needs clarification of old rules rather than introduction of new ones and I think a couple of us incorrectly assumed this was one of them.
There are proposed rules in existence to expand the D&R, check the useful files thread for some. I'd post a couple links but I haven't had ample opportunity to explore the thread and I'm still in class .

[mordencai]

Thank you malice!

I really love the game... and I have studied it quite a lot... my conclusion is that it has REAL potential to be the one and only game I would need to game with... Its like to find a "Amber Drpg", that works hehe... and I mean that in the best of sense!

I have many different question I really would like to find some answer for tho... like the thing with the rule of thumb...

anther thing I would like to find some clarification is how to handle movement...
a stone or two put on Speed would make me move... but in a battle how far would I be able to move? I can have a look at the D&R chart and find out how far I have travelled but this would just get a person with a higher speed would almost always be able to reach any other person in line of sight within a very short while... and it is quite a lot of math to find out how far a person is from the rest... so what should I do, I thought... well the game talks a lot about stones... why not use them to mark different person's distances from a central point in the battle with the amount of stones they have moved from this point...

Let me show what I mean with an example:
Psybolt, Shadowstrike and Moon Cat (characters in my campaign) is getting a feel for the game.. the first page Moon Cat disappears with her invisibility, Psybolt make a dash with his high speed to put some distance between him and the others, and Shadowstrike stays on the spot and tries to defend against any incoming attack. That's what happens the first page. To show how far from them Psybolt dashed away we first checked the D&R chart... with a Speed of 4 he would be able to move 10 blocks in one page... ~750 yards!... but this would put him out of the battle real quick and that was no fun I thought. So I gave him 4 stones of distance instead. These stones would be used to figure out how the others would be able to hit him and if they want to take up the chase of him they had to make an effort to reduce the amount of stones of distance before they can catch up with him and engage him in close combat...
With this hack of a solution we did not need to keep track of any movement in yards and it was really sweet when I had to figure out how many panels Moon Cat had to sneak closer to Psybolt to attack him... her Invisibility did help her a lot but still...

So what do you think of using stones as a "combat speed" counter...?

[malice]

To be honest most my experience with distance is with characters who could move massive distances in a short amount of time OR normal speed characters, not a lot of in-betweeners, which seems to be where your question stems from. I don't think I'm the best authority on this one, however I'll say what I can, hope you find some use for it.

I haven't GMed in awhile, I think I used to give the speedster situational defense equal to the stones they spent to travel at the speed. So a person running at speed 10 would have 5 defense against certain attacks, but they would be there for long. As for the distance travelled, I actually let him run the distance he would've. He used to run to different countries because he liked the food from a certain restaurant in Bordeaux or whatever. Basically if a person running really fast to get away and they have the speed to do so I let them. That same character encountered a powerful NPC in Portugal (he was on his way to Spain in order to get a burrito or something) and had to flee through Africa. This all happened in a little over 3 or 4 panels (I say "a little over" because panels are flexible depending on the actions taken). That same character has fled fights... and the continent the fight was on. It's cowardly as hell, but not really clownish or ridiculous. His team could punish him later, but I wouldn't keep him from doing it.
Wow I've talked a lot and said little. Sorry, I was carrying on a conversation IRL and such. I like your means of measuring distance in stones. I just let people run as fast as they could go in the time it takes for the panel to end, which varies. I generally don't calculate it precisely, just getting a general figure in my head and letting them go. If he was 750 yards away he was out of the range of mental bolts though wasn'th he? They're range 4 (500 yds).

[mordencai]

Yes he was out of range for most normal ranged power attack (I think most is at range ~3 normally, unless extended ranged is bought, and some reach 4) but a good rifle would still be able to hit him.
The stones would be used as a situational defense modifier, first to show that he would need to actually move each time he wants to get the defense, and secondly to make it possible to show how far away he was or how fast he moved in the "combat" which would give a kind of graphic description of the movement.

It he didn’t put stones in moving he didn’t move either... thus making sure he got "clobbered" in time in close combat. To me, being a speedster, one has to make use of the power one has. This is an expenditure of "energy" or "show of intent" as I prefer to see the energy as...

To me the "energy" one has is used to show what the character is trying to accomplish and how quickly this will be done. I was reading through the power of Growth last night and was kind of surprised that it didn’t take much to change size and gain a lot of Strength and Durability. and why did they have to "lock" the power so you couldn’t use Lines to improve it? I say let the powers be free of restraints, and let the GM worry about game balance. If the GM wants persons not to be able to grow with lines he can impose this rule himself.

In my campaign Psybolt had the power of Psi-weapon to AN 5. As we could read it was a very good deal you get on the invested stones. Just spend 5 energy one time to get a +5 weapon that lasted for the rest of the battle.
He combined that with ranged combat AN2, a Agility Bonus or 6 and Targeting +4... all in all a nice 17 stone attack... from a average well-rounded 40 stones character. Quite impressive that a beginning character would be able to deliver such an attack, I do think. A couple of shots in the battle and he would stand as the winner most of the time.
;D