Combining Actions for the Two Action Limit...

[thedragonmaster]

During our groups game this last week the question arose of what counts towards the Two Action Limit. The way our GM played it is that if you combine two Actions for the sake of effect, it counts as one Action (thus a one effect, one action type of ruling). But the way I had understood it is that each Action used counted individually, regardless of combined effects. So the question is, which is it?

Perhaps an example to show where I'm confused (and perhaps shed light on something I didn't know I was confused about). Static uses his Mastery of Vibration combined with Close Combat (paid the extra CL).
Does that count as one or two actions?
What if I hadn't bought the advantage?

Lets assume that instead we are dealing with Mastery of Vibration and Concentration (or some such Action).
Does that count as an extra Action, or just one?

Assuming that the one effect, one action ruling to be correct, how many Actions can be combined for effect while still counting as one action?

This may have been brought up in a thread somewhere, but I have had no luck finding it so I thank those who will assist me in this.

[Kaimontfendo]

I'd say combining actions still counts as using two actions. All the time, no exceptions.

Well, actually, I think if you're leaping from a rooftop, trying to strike an enemy from above, you could combine acrobatics with close combat (I'm pretty sure that example's in the books someplace) but you could also use acrobatics to negate your falling damage. So I guess you're still only using two actions, but they are combining for an attack, and you'd still get to negate the falling damage. I guess.

[thedragonmaster]

So then what is the specific advantage to taking the Advantage of Combines with Close Combat? Are you not allowed to do so otherwise (which doesn't fit my understanding of how it works)? Or does it just give you a Sit Mod?

[Kaimontfendo]

Taking it as an option allows you to combine the two all the time, as opposed to only some of the time or none of the time.

For example, Acrobatics can't combine with combat all the time, unless you pay extra for it. The example of getting the drop on an opponent by leaping from a rooftop is a special case. (I think it was in the Avengers guide as an example.)

Masteries, however, cannot combine with combat unless the option is taken. (Or, I suppose you could argue that Iceman could make ice weapons to add to his attacks, similar to Psi-Weapon or something, but that's a little outside my area of expertise.)

Uhh... I hope that helps...?

[thedragonmaster]

Yeah, I think I see where you're going. It would be possible with the example to combine it (sort of) at least to the extent of using it during combat. At least, the way it's been being used so far this game (dissolving the floor out from underneath an opponent by increasing the vibrations of the floor's atoms until they no longer hold together, essentially vaporising the floor) excuses could be made (though it has the only on nonliving matter disadvantage, so only on those with armor) for why it would be being used... Now I'm just getting myself confused. I believe I do see what you're saying, though I'm too tired right now to be able to clearly reword it to show any level of comprehension. Thank you for the quick reply, and have a great night.

[Kaimontfendo]

No thanks are required for the quick replies. (I'm trying to get my post count up to 400 by the end of the day.) However, I would like to point out that my opinion may vary from many others' and I would like for someone else to weigh in in this topic.

Also, I like the idea of vibrating the floor's molecules apart, but I have no idea now many stones that would take. It's a good thing to be able to add concentration to it, huh?

[thedragonmaster]

It was a wooden floor (2nd level). I don't know how many stones of resistance the GM assigned to it, but I threw 6 stones at it (2 from the Mastery, and 4 from Concentration) and the GM accepted it. Of course, in Arizona (where the campaign takes place) it is hard to find terribly good construction on the houses and that might have been used as a sit mod.

[Kaimontfendo]

If I had to make up a difficulty for vibrating a floor apart, I'd probably use a formula of Stones spent - Hardness = Area of floor broken apart at the molecular level, measured on the area row of the D&R chart. Although I feel like that's a tad low for the difficulty to dissolve a floor, I can't think of anything else to add to it, except maybe range, but that's already supposed to be part of the mastery.

In fact, it could even be argued that your opponent's weight is a favorable sit mod for this, which would make it even easier. Still, I like the idea.

[thedragonmaster]

(Pulls out the D&R Chart) Let's see, on the hardness row wood is marked as being 1 stone, but let's count it as two since breaking furniture is two and I doubt that furniture will be much tougher than the floor it sits on. I placed 6 stones into the action. 6-2 = 4. 4 on the Range chart is 50', and my opponent was just across the room from me. So I guess that works out. Of course, if the house had been around for any length of time (or had been built by any of the well known companies here) it shouldn't be too terrible difficult for it to be torn apart like that (seriously, the construction companies out here do a terrible job, frequently having one part done to code, or even well, before moving on to the next part).

[malice]

I would use Hardness as difficulty not resistance, so if you don't have the AN you can't do it. Area and range will give you enough trouble without paying for hardness as well. If that sounds too powerful consider the fact that collateral damage and the inability to use the mastery on living things are included in the package. That collateral damage is frequently YOU. Basically don't fight too close to the vibration guy while indoors.

[thedragonmaster]

Where did you get the notion that collateral damage was included? (I do actually have the "can't use on living things" disad though) I had asked the GM for the collateral damage disad, but someone made a comment about the "Floating Sphere of Destruction" and the GM just shook his head and said "Not in this life".

[malice]

Collateral damage isn't a disadvantage you add on to Mastery of Vibration's force blast, it's just there. That's how mastery effects work, they're defined by the element.

You can take additional advantages and disadvantages, but for the basic +1 you get what the element provides. For example the fire force blast is 2x damage, you don't pay +2 or +3 for it, just +1.

Some masteries are better or worse than others for certain options; gravity has an excellent force blast, water has a lame one. Basically you take the options and collaborate with your GM on what it means, or pay extra and you won't have the GM to worry about so much.

Btw, I know it doesn't say in the book that Mastery of Vibration comes with collateral damage, but how could it not? You don't get a discount for the "doesn't affect living things" or "collateral damage" disadvantages, they're just there, and you get to buy a blast that can collapse buildings for +1 to cost level.

[thedragonmaster]

1. I wasn't using force blast (didn't have enough stones left over for it at char gen), I touched the floor at my feet. (yes, I fell too, but that is more or less the way I play my characters, if you're going to fail, fail big, ended up using phase to keep from breaking a leg during the fall) though I am saving up loe to gain force blast

2. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on the nature of my ability. He controls (at the moment) the vibration of molecules, so most of his effects are a little more... subtle than that specific example might suggest. This means that for disolving a glass, he's your guy, for creating a mini earthquake, find someone else. Also, as always in MURPG the GM is final arbiter of rule interpretation, and this particular GM treated "doesn't affect living things" and "collateral damage" as cost reducing disadvantages

The specific options this GM allowed were Force Field, create manipulate, and accumulate energy. The only disadvantage allowed (at least of the two that were asked about) was "doesn't affect living matter" (a slight modification on the other that also includes the recently dead).

Though I could certainly see the reasoning behind automatically adding on the "living matter" and "collateral damage" restrictions, were I GMing, I would allow the CL break (just as I would require a player wanting to play a disembodied form to pay for physical invulnerability or for a fire masters force blast to pay for 2x or 3x damage if they want it) if they want the PC to react with the environment in a given way, I would require it be accounted for as part of the cost of the PC. But then, that is something that each GM has to decide for themselves how they will handle it. (though I don't have the books with me to verify the "characteristics defined by element for free" part)

EDIT: Checked the book when I got home last night. Vibration's force blast is listed as an area effect, 2x damage, doesn't directly effect the living (I see it as a wave of violent energy expanding out from the location of the character) which to me sounds like automatic collateral damage, but isn't listed as such (don't know why).
But there are still two points that I hold to.
*to say that my character is a master of vibration (as listed in the book) isn't very accurate (though close enough for the purpose towards which I started this thread). A master of molecular vibration would be more accurate. The main difference being fines. His actions are meant to be more subtle, less noticeable, and certainly less violent than the normal mastery of vibration.
*Were I GMing the game, I would require that any effect the person wants associated with use of the power be paid for. It is always possible through color to explain why an effect which would seem obvious isn't there (ex. no 2x damage for fire force blast could be that the "force" that is hitting them is the super heated air at the front of the column of fire).

...

Also, I want to thank everyone for their responses. They have all been very helpful. And malice, thank your for the suggestion regarding hardness. It makes a lot of sense, more so than hardness being treated as resistance (don't know which one the GM treated it as). Hardness as resistance equates to, "AN of 1? sure you can break titanium, it will just take a while". While hardness as difficulty means, "AN of 1? you can disolve the tree over there, but don't even waste your time on that block of granite". And that just... feels right.

[Kaimontfendo]

I gotta agree about the confusingly named "Mastery of Vibration." Avalanche's power is basically Seismic Vibration, although I believe he can be more subtle if he feels like it. This could be because he has a high AN and usually spends a lot, or it could be the result of a collateral damage option on his mastery. I dunno, and I don't have my books with me to look it up.

Still, I don't see any reason why vibration attacks shouldn't be able to effect living opponents. Or a reason they should automatically cause collateral damage. Although Avalanche's Mastery causing collateral damage seems like a given, I think it's foolish to require the same for a master of more subtle vibrations. But in the end, if a player and GM can agree on it, that's how it is. Just like if I want a Master of Fire who can light peoples' clothes, causing them a little bit of damage each panel until extinguished. Although that should probably cost a fair bit extra.

As for Difficultly & Resistance, using hardness for both is probably a bit excessive. For a character who can cause molecular vibrations that should be able to break apart anything (at least in theory) difficulty seems better. For a character who typically uses Mastery of Vibration in other ways, like making vibroblades, for example (Combine with Close Combat) the resistance should probably be a bit higher.

Err... I hope that helps?

[thedragonmaster]

We weren't talking about it being both Difficulty and Resistance, just which one it makes more sense for it to be. Also, malice was using the books description of "Vibration" when he said it doesn't effect living opponents, I was told by my GM to take the disadvantage (probably because he could see the potential problems with allowing me to have it, I have the tendencies of a budding rules lawyer no matter how much I may try to resist it). Though this does lead to an interesting question for me to ask the GM, whether or not I can use the ability to make people ill like those sonic guns the military was working on do.