2x And 3x...?

[77odinson77]

I know that the book regards these Advantages as only affecting damage, but would it be too much of a stretch to interpret them as damage OR effect? A case in point:

A character has Mastery of Magic at 5 with 2x, and 4 Durability (12 Energy). He wants to create a magical barrier to ward his apartment (more or less a 50' area; A = 4) and he wants the ward active through the night (1000 panels; D = 4).

Normally this would cost him 13 energy, and since he doesn't have the energy to pull it off he is incapable of doing so. But what about the 2x? If he puts 2 into Area, couldn't he apply it there to get an effective 4? Now his effective energy cost for the same spell would be 11, which would allow him to cast it (which is still 5 defense, not 10, and he's still paying the full 4 for Duration).

I don't see any reason why this couldn't work. The player is still paying stones for the Advantage, and he's trading damage output for greater versatility. I certainly wouldn't allow him to double the defense AND the area or duration, as that would definitely be game-breaking; I simply think the multiplier could be used for more than just damage. It's not all that uncommon for damage to be the least important factor in a given situation, so I don't feel right telling my players that they've effectively wasted character creation stones in those situations.

I welcome any thoughts and constructive criticism on the subject.

[Pope Mega Force]

The reason it wouldn't work or be allowed is that 2x and 3x apply to stones that get through. So if I hit someone with four stones 2x damage and they have a defense of 5, nothing gets through. But if I hit them with 6 and their defense is still 5, that one stone that got through becomes 2. Something like building a barrier has not threshold to overcome and therefore is unable to be doubled or tripled with the advantages.

[WildKnight]

If the guy wants to Ward his apartment or something like that, the logical thing would be to buy the "Increase AN" Advantage. The whole point of that Advantage is that it allows for greater effects by making a spell into a "ritual"

[Brainstem]

Also figure that the 2x and 3x damage Modifiers are further balanced out by the fact that you still need 3r of damage before getting to the next actual point of health loss.

[Neros]

I would generally say "no". Some things might work for this.. Like telepathy which needs to get through something to have an effect.. And even still there, I would be cautious to allow this.. But generally, other actions which doesn't have a "either or neither"-rish effect, shouldn't in my opinion, be allowed to have this.

If its because they don't have enough energy to power the.... Power, then just get the house ruled energy reserve or maybe efficiency.

[77odinson77]

Pope Mega Force:
I get what you're saying on a strictly nuts-and-bolts level, disagree on principle. The fact that there is no threshold to overcome doesn't necessarily mean it's impossible; it simply means that the resistance is zero. A regular Force Field doubles its defense, so I don't see why the given scenario should be handled any differently (especially when the player is paying for the Advantage).

WildKnight:
You make a very good point about the Increase AN advantage; I definitely feel like a rube for not thinking of it myself, especially since it is cheaper than the 2x anyway. The only issue I have with that route is that it takes an hour of prep for each +1, and some players (understandably) don't want that liability.

Brainstem:
I don't quite understand where you're going with your comment. Feel free to elaborate further, I don't mind at all; I just think I'm missing something.

Neros:
You have some good thoughts in the sense of energy conservation, and in the given example it was an issue. There is more to it than that, though. Really, my belief is there is more to the effectiveness of Actions than simply damage, and that the player should have the right to decide exactly which kind of boost he wants his powers to have.

I know I may have repeated myself a bit there, but I'm all about polite so I wanted to address everyone individually. I do appreciate the good feedback all around, and I hope we can keep the dialogue going.

[Brainstem]

Right, sorry, that wasn't entirely clear.

Part of the cost of the Advantages takes into consideration that they're damage put in after the resistance, along the lines of what Pope was saying. It's not the same as a resistance of 0 because there's never a resistance to creating effects like those. What you wind up creating is an Advantage that doesn't really give you double/triple effect, it's a variable Modifier for the Action at all times.

2x/3x damage is priced as low as it is because it has to overcome something in order to have an effect. I don't have my book on-hand, but I believe it says somewhere that every character always has a Defense, even if that Defense is zero. With that in mind, there is a set Resistance to overcome at all times, which is enhanced by shifting stones.

If I put 5 stones into a 3x Damage Force Blast, the 5 stones don't automatically become 15 stones. They go against Defense first, with the remainder tripling (which, I know you know). If I put 5 stones into creating a magic barrier, there is no resistance to overcome. The barrier is a resistance. In essence, if you apply the 3x to that barrier, you wind up with a Modifier of +10, because the output stones are multiplied.

Truthfully, I'm pretty sure 2x and 3x only apply to damage (so actual offensive stones), but (as before), I don't have my book on-hand to back me up. As a question, does it list the Advantage as "2x Damage" and "3x Damage?" If so, then that's enough to support this claim, I believe. If not, then that's just my RAI getting in the way.

And I know it's easy to cite Force Field, but it's become a very broad consensus around here that FF is a terribly broken Action that really isn't a good reference point for cost adjudication.

I feel like I may have wound up rambling more, so if you'd like me to clarify again, let me know.

[77odinson77]

You make a lot of sense, Brainstem. +2 CL does seem pretty low for a VARIABLE advantage. Do you think it would be feasible to keep doing it the way I presented, but upping the cost levels (say, +4 for 2x [V] and +6 for 3x [V])? I do still want to give my players options, but not at the risk of breaking the game unnecessarily.

There's wisdom in your rambling, so don't sweat it.

[Brainstem]

Truthfully, the game is broken enough as it is that breaking it further isn't going to do a whole heck of a lot, but I definitely understand not wanting to mess it up.

Magic, as a whole, is considered to be a very flawed aspect of the game primarily due to it's breadth. There's a specific catch on Mastery of Magic that disallows "use [of] more than 6 stones, including Bonuses or Modifiers, unless otherwise specified." I know WK did answer the MoM concern with the "Increase Action Number" Option, but the concept would still apply to Actions like Masteries or Sorcery.

At the real heart of the matter, you're looking to create a way for a player to do something that's far out of the scope of the ability. Keep in mind that you're asking to set up a barrier of that power in a single Panel. Yes, a Panel has a very abstract duration, but it's safe to assume that creating something on the scope you desire should probably take longer than a combat cycle.

Actions are created and balanced around use in combat and the like, I would presume, so such applications are not within the breadth of the Actions. When you see Ice Man create some kind of ice device, he does it in an instant. Quickly enough that he would be able to create a weapon and use it in one Panel.

Think of Action Number with any Modifiers/Abilities as the strength of your power. If you have enough Strength to squat 400lbs, no amount of bonus is going to suddenly give you the ability to squat 450lbs unless there's a person there doing half the work for you (which would be a situational modifier). Likewise, if you simply lack the strength of control or power or whatever on your Action, you aren't going to be able to accomplish the task. Advantages don't make you directly better at what you do, they make the results more effective. If you notice, none of them (with the exception of Extra Ability Bonus/Weapon Modifier) impact what you do. Instead, they impact how the world responds to what you do.

What you're asking for, essentially, is a way to make a higher AN than what you have, and to access it for free. As much as it goes against letting players do what they want, I would suggest just not allowing it. It opens up too much room for abuse in-game. If a character wants to create a large barrier that can last into the night, then the player needs to amp up his or her Action Number considerably so something is within the realm of possibility. Buying the Ability Bonus, finding tools that give Modifiers, and getting help all give the extra edge that might make something possible and also remember that, even if you don't have enough stones in your reserve, you could certainly take the time to spend a few panels and not exhaust yourself while working towards the total.

[ultron2099]

Sept 7, 2012 11:43:11 GMT -5 Pope Mega Force said:

The reason it wouldn't work or be allowed is that 2x and 3x apply to stones that get through. So if I hit someone with four stones 2x damage and they have a defense of 5, nothing gets through. But if I hit them with 6 and their defense is still 5, that one stone that got through becomes 2. Something like building a barrier has not threshold to overcome and therefore is unable to be doubled or tripled with the advantages.

Fear ALL for I have returned, and I am burdened with glorious purpose. The marvel super heroes book explains it differently.

Gambit is faced with a 5 stone wall. He pulls out one of his playing cards (+1 card) and charges it with three stones. He has the x2 multiplier and throws the card. Three stones plus +1 modifier is 4 multiplied x2 for an effect of 8. The wall resists for five, so three stones fall. According to the book that left a 25 foot hole in the wall.

So in your example above, the four x2 would be a force of 8 against a resistance of 5 so someone would suffer 3 points damage, not 2.

[77odinson77]

Okay. I know it's been a while, but I think I have worked out a solution:

The Advantages literally apply to damage (2x/3x damage). The simple fix is, rather than saying that you could apply 2x or 3x to an effect other than damage (which I do agree would be way too broken), instead buy the Advantage separately for each effect you want to modify (2x duration, 3x area, etc.). Damage, range, area, and duration could each have their own multiplier Advantages, all of which must be bought separately.

Example: I could buy Mastery of Magic 5 (6w) with 2x damage (12w), which would only apply to damage. But then I could also buy 2x duration (20w) and 2x area (30w), and any stones I put in for duration or area would be doubled. Given the fact that costs get really high really fast, I think that could work without unbalancing anything.

If anyone cares anymore (it's been almost a year since the last activity), let me know what you think.

[lilithsboy]

Okay I am the guy who likes all things magic and honestly believe magic is not as bad as what most people believe on here, particularly when you compare it to some of the more broken actions.

But the problem with what you are doing is removing what balance there is with magic.

Example Lets say I have Asguardian sorcery with 3 an and 7 int I also have 2x duration. I can now use this to give someone any powers I want with an AN of 5 for 1 century. It cost me nothing cost them nothing and is entirely risk free is instantaneous and this is no where near all this power can do.

Messing with duration area ect by giving them 2x means people will be able to exploit things in ways you never dreamed.

I do however think you can apply those powers to things that have effect instead of damage i.e. energy drain, fear, sleep, stun and the like. Because they are resisted normally.

[77odinson77]

I misspoke. Pretty badly, actually. I didn't mean to say that the stones would be doubled (even though that's literally what I said earlier; it was late and I was very tired), but rather the actual time given on the D&R would be doubled or tripled. So a duration of five would actually be two or three days as opposed to one (not a century), and an area of five would actually be two or three hundred feet as opposed to one hundred (not 3+ miles). I would have to agree that the way I had originally stated it would be way too broken. But given the outrageous leaps in most of the values on the D&R, I think the revised method would definitely help players without breaking everything.
My goal is not breakage (even though it definitely seems that way sometimes, I must admit), but rather a wider range of options. There aren't really a lot of Advantages available in the game, so I think that widening the applicability of existing ones is a good idea in lieu of adding a bunch of new ones for two reasons: 1) people tend to argue ad nauseam over new things, and not so much over revisions to already existing things; and 2) it takes a lot less work to revise something that already exists than it does to add a completely new and foreign element to an existing framework.

[lilithsboy]

I do not feel that adding that would break it too bad but you may want to watch how you let people take it. Eventually you get into flavor and it does let you hit target numbers you would not be able to normally.