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Post by Stark on Jul 27, 2008 18:34:31 GMT -5
I didn't say you said that either. Even by his own creators? Maybe some people overrate him, but I always base myself on facts, and I read in various books that Maul's dark side potential was very great, though he didn't lived long enough to fully develop it, where Tyrannus' was lower, but fully developped, which made him a bit more fearsome opponent than Maul... at that time. (I think that Maul 10 years later and Tyrannus had that time would be a very, very one-sided battle.) That and the lightsaber thing is also a fact that is explained when you seek knowledge about the origins of the Two-bladed saber: a Sith weapon designed to grant a distinct advantage into defeating regular lightsaber wielders. Tyrannus being quite old and less healthy and in good shape (also physically weakened by the dark side of the force as he grows stronger in it) is also a fact. I'm overrating nobody, I'm merely judging the facts I know to make my opinion.
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Post by Cernunnos on Jul 27, 2008 19:04:47 GMT -5
I didn't say you said that either. Even by his own creators? Maybe some people overrate him, but I always base myself on facts, and I read in various books that Maul's dark side potential was very great, though he didn't lived long enough to fully develop it, where Tyrannus' was lower, but fully developped, which made him a bit more fearsome opponent than Maul... at that time. (I think that Maul 10 years later and Tyrannus had that time would be a very, very one-sided battle.) That and the lightsaber thing is also a fact that is explained when you seek knowledge about the origins of the Two-bladed saber: a Sith weapon designed to grant a distinct advantage into defeating regular lightsaber wielders. Tyrannus being quite old and less healthy and in good shape (also physically weakened by the dark side of the force as he grows stronger in it) is also a fact. I'm overrating nobody, I'm merely judging the facts I know to make my opinion. Here’s the facts about Darth Maul:- Darth Maul was a skilled lightsaber duelist he was trained by Darth Sidious in Form VII, a form that drew on emotions and the Dark Side of the Force. - Maul also mastered the fighting style of Teräs Käsi, and was also skilled in the Jar'Kai style of duo-saber fighting. Unlike the traditional dueling techniques of most Jedi, Maul combined his swordsmanship with martial arts and hand-to-hand combat skills—a combination which made him a nearly unstoppable dervish of destruction. However, it should be noted that Maul only devoted himself to Form VII's physical focus. - Darth Maul was also skilled in combining Force talents with mechanics. He used a Sith Holocron to devise his double-bladed lightsaber (something that the Sith Lord Exar Kun first made, albeit he wielded it one handed) - His aptitude for the Force (the Dark Side especially) was rather poor for someone trained from the age that he was. He was raised by Sidious since he was a child. He worked harder and focused more of his time on the physical aspects of his body then that of his Force capacity. This is evident by hi mastery of Teräs Käsi. Were he to devote some of his time to training in the Force, then he might have been a far better Sith apprentice. Form VII Facts:- Form VII was generally viewed as undeveloped and rarely used by the Jedi and the Sith, Juyo was not seen as one of the main forms for generations of Jedi. - Fearless, somewhat direct movements were used in combination with advanced techniques involving Force-powered jumps and very fast motions. Form VII did not appear quite as fancy as Form IV, as there were not as many moves like twirling and flipping, but the technical requirements were much higher. Vaapad (a variant of form VII) used seemingly free-wheeling and open movements, but with utter control on the part of the wielder. The end result, if practiced correctly, was a very unpredictable lightsaber style. The faltering swings and flow of the form made it seem as if the attacks were not linked but in reality, it was used to confuse the opponent. - Form VII demanded the emotional and physical intensity of Form V, but it much more effectively controlled it if mastered. Form VII when fully mastered, resulted in extraordinary power. Darth Maul only devoted to the Form's physical focus (which is why he remained silent during the duels on Tatooine and Naboo.) Maul desired pure physical victory, rather than the "higher" Sith tradition of Dun Möch. - With that said, Vaapad was not just a fighting style. It was a state of mind and a power. Thus this is its greatest drawback. Interruption of the mind or body during usage of this form can lead to a quick end for a practitioner. - The state of mind required that a user of Form VII allow themselves to gather thrill from a battle. The power of Vaapad was simple: it was a channel for one's inner darkness; and it was a reflecting device. With strict control, a Jedi's own emotions and inner darkness could be changed into a weapon of the light. Here’s the facts about Darth Tyrannus:- Master Dooku was an accomplished philosopher, orator, politician, and warrior, regarded as one of the greatest Jedi ever for his strength of character and his strength in the Force. Yoda considered him both the Temple's greatest student and one of his greatest failures. - Before his resignation, Dooku was known as one of the most skilled duelists and lightsaber instructors in the Jedi Order. Along with Yoda, Dooku was one of only two Jedi who were known to have bested Mace Windu (THE CREATOR OF FORM VII’S VAAPAD) at sparring, and during the time of the Confederacy Crisis, it was said that aside from Yoda, only Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground. - Though styles like Form III, IV, and V were more practical in the age of blasters, Dooku's competitive spirit drove him toward the Form II of lightsaber combat (Makashi) though he maintained a working knowledge of other forms as well. This makes him versatile, because he can freely adjust to opponents and change forms when needed. - He was one of a very few practitioners of this dueling-centric lightsaber form in the Order at the time, and unmatched in his mastery of it. When he became a Sith Lord, Dooku had little left to learn about dueling, though he ended up learning the Sith art of Dun Möch. - As a Jedi, Dooku was a renowned student of the Force and learned many of the Jedi arts. He was recognized as a skilled master of telekinesis, and lectured on the subject as a Jedi Master. His skill in telekinesis was usually used to augment his dueling prowess. - As a Sith Lord, he sometimes combined telekinesis with the use of Force lightning or Force choke. Dooku had a notable ability to multitask, and used the Force frequently even in the midst of lightsaber combat. Form II Notes:- Form II was described as being very elegant, powerful, and requiring extreme precision, allowing the user to attack and defend with minimal effort, while his opponent tires himself out, often wielding the blade one-handed for greater range of movement and fluidity. The form relied on parries, thrusts, and small, precise cuts as opposed to the blocking and slashing of the other forms. - Form II emphasized fluid motion and anticipation of a weapon being swung at its target, and so required very fluid movements of both the blade and the body. Feints would also be commonly used to confuse or set-up their opponents for a trap, a tactic that Count Dooku commonly used in his duels - A drawback was that Makashi was most potent when used against a single opponent, and therefore was reduced in strength when fighting groups of adversaries. But the greatest flaw with this system of combat was that it could not withstand strikes from later styles which emphasized more powerful strokes over Makashi's elegance and precision. As shown during Dooku's fatal duel with Anakin that Makashi simply did not generate the necessary kinetic energy to meet Djem So (Skywalker's preferred style) on an even footing. The sheer raw power of Form V wore down Dooku's defenses, physically exhausting him and draining his reserves of Force power. - Seeing as Form VII is the most physical of the forms. I could see where Dooku might be in trouble against Maul. However, after using Dun Möch after a while, and parrying. I don’t see why it couldn’t work to Dooku’s advantage AFTER ALL HE DID DEFEAT THE CREATOR OF FORM VII’S VAAPAD FORM! That said... can you honestly tell me that you think Maul could possibly defeat Dooku?
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Post by Mister Sinister on Jul 27, 2008 19:15:11 GMT -5
Maul's potential and ability was invested almost primarily in combat. He was raised uder harsh conditions to be a warrior, a wielder of the sword. He possessed formidable, though not necessarily remarkable, Force abiities. The double bladed lightsaber does not necessarily provide a distinct advangtage over normal lightsabers. It is a barbaric weapon, and traditionally associated with the dark side because of the wild, aggressive nature of it's wielder. It is more powerful and brash, while being less fluid and defensive. Of course, it all depends in the skill of the user, like anything else, but the idea that it provides a "distinct advantage" is blatantly incorrect. Tyranus, however, was a real swordsman. Elegant and swift in every manner. As far as his Force potential, he and Yoda threw their might at each other to a standstill until the ligthsabers were involved, implying how much Dooku's ability was nearly in Yoda's league - Maul is nowhere near it, even in the most thinly stretched and farfetched theory. Even in Tyranus' age, he was not frail and incapable - it took Sidious quite awhile to reach that point himself, and he was much older and more strongly tainted by the dark side. Lastly, Dooku, having once been a revered Jedi before becoming a Sith Lord, possessed understanding of both the light an the dark side, his versatility putting him in a league Maul could only have hoped t reach in his latest years. Furthermore, Maul was sliced in half by a Padawan. EDIT: I was writing this as Cernunnos was posting.
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Post by Stark on Jul 27, 2008 19:18:56 GMT -5
Considering what I said earlier.... yes. I know Dooku's more skilled in various areas, but I also know that he's old, that his opponent has an advantage by the weapon he uses... and that as you mentionned, Form VII is the most physical of all forms, and that Maul focused on physical training, and has always focused his anger and rage to the point he even defeated his master, Sidious, in personal combat as part of his initiation as a Sith lord. With all that combined, I'd say that not ony has he a chance, but that he has as as much chances as his opponent to win. EDIT: And I wrote this as you were posting. But I still consider what I'm saying to be true. Everywhere I read about Maul's weapon, it said the same thing. And I know that Sidious is more frail than Dooku is; but saying he isn't is exagerating. Dark side corrupts, and though Maul also makes use of it, he's younger and in better physical condition. Call me headstrong, but I won't change my mind on this subject; Maul would make an excellent opponent against Tyrannus.
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Post by Mister Sinister on Jul 27, 2008 19:22:58 GMT -5
Considering what I said earlier.... yes. I know Dooku's more skilled in various areas, but I also know that he's old, that his opponent has an advantage by the weapon he uses... and that as you mentionned, Form VII is the most physical of all forms, and that Maul focused on physical training, and has always focused his anger and rage to the point he even defeated his master, Sidious, in personal combat as part of his initiation as a Sith lord. With all that combined, I'd say that not ony has he a chance, but that he has as as much chances as his opponent to win. His age is irrelevant. You can overcome vast physical limitations through the Force, as shown famously by Master Yoda, Sidious, and Dooku. His experience and versatility, as repeatedly explained, far outways Maul's viciousness and vitality. Maul defeating Dooku is akin to X-23 ravaging Wolverine.
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Post by Stark on Jul 27, 2008 19:24:49 GMT -5
Yes you can... and when there are no vast physical limitations, such as in Maul's case, then you can make your normally good physical abilities even better.
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Post by Mister Sinister on Jul 27, 2008 19:28:13 GMT -5
Yes you can... and when there are no vast physical limitations, such as in Maul's case, then you can make your normally good physical abilities even better. That said, Dooku was incredibly more well versed in the Force than Maul, executing acrobatic maneuvers much in the same fashion. He was stronger in the Force, more knowledgeable and experienced in combat (and everything else than Maul, to be frank). Dooku could handle Yoda. Maul couldn't handle Ben Kenobi. 'Nuff said.
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Post by Stark on Jul 27, 2008 19:30:17 GMT -5
Kenobi had the scenarists on his side, otherwise he would have been annihilated from the very beginning. 'Sides, Maul would have had all the time in the world to kill him when he was suspended above certain death, but he stayed there making sparks with his saber... yeaah right, like a Sith would wait to kill a Jedi.
At any rate, no need to continue this discussion as far as I'm concerned. Those who think it'd be a good match and those that think otherwise will never agree on that question, no matter the arguments... and that's because we are comparing not only apples with apples, but Granny smith apples with Granny smith apples, lol.
That kind of problem doesn't happen as often in Marvel, because almost no characters are similar enough to doubt who'd win (hummhummm*SabertoothWolverine*hummhummm*), but In Star Wars, it's just Jedi VS Jedi VS Jedi VS Jedi VS Jedi VS Non-jedi (sometimes), and Non-Jedi are usually toast, lol.
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Post by Mister Sinister on Jul 27, 2008 19:32:53 GMT -5
That I can agree with. Agree to disagree on the other stuff. EDIT: Oh, my Christ! Of course a Sith would wait. Why?? To gloatand savor the thrill of impending victory, just like every other megalomaniacal villain who had the chance to win!
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Post by Cernunnos on Jul 27, 2008 19:33:58 GMT -5
Considering what I said earlier.... yes. I know Dooku's more skilled in various areas, but I also know that he's old, NO! The actor is! But Dooku isn't! Force users live longer and healthier than normal people of thier species. Force users live 2-3x longer! So no... he isn't old. He lived to be 83 years old. If you think about it after what I just said... in normal human years that's about 43 or 27 years old. Not when Dun Möch is employed!
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Post by Stark on Jul 27, 2008 19:35:42 GMT -5
You fully have the right for that, friend. ;D And I was battling for mine for a while here, lol. Everyone have the right to have their opinion. Han Solo defeated Kueller by using fluffy animals that sucked up the Force out of force users in a certain area... so Han Solo's the best ever.
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Post by Cernunnos on Jul 27, 2008 19:36:40 GMT -5
Han Solo defeated Kueller by using fluffy animals that sucked up the Force out of force users in a certain area... so Han Solo's the best ever. He also killed PALPATINE!
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Post by Cernunnos on Jul 27, 2008 19:38:31 GMT -5
No he's not! He's becoming one with the Dark Side of the Force. That's what the Dark Side does!
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Post by Stark on Jul 27, 2008 19:40:44 GMT -5
Cern, you have your opinion and I have mine. Respect that. Ask a 43 years old guy to do backflips, even if he knows how... he'll have a hard time. It'll be easier if he uses the force, right, but ask a 20 years old to do backflips with the force and he'll do roughly as good, even if he's less strong in the force, given the fact he's younger. You may not agree with that and it's okay if that's what you think, but I think it's logical, I have friends and family that agree with me and so I think I'm right.
Also, no need to write in caps a big "NO!!!" every time you don't agree, that just seem aggressive.
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Post by Cernunnos on Jul 27, 2008 19:41:36 GMT -5
Cern, you have your opinion and I have mine. Respect that. Ask a 43 years old guy to do backflips, even if he knows how... he'll have a hard time. Jet Lei
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