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Post by urgat on Jan 24, 2006 16:33:23 GMT -5
Hi I'm pleased with the marvelsystem so far but has two point I'm not particuallry fond of. 1: The use of abilitybonuses to skills 2: The fact that to hit and damage are the same So the first topic... The use of abilitybonuses on skills seems lacking somehow. It's essentially a way to cheapen the skillcost if you have high enough in your chosen ability. Here's my suggestion to an alternative. All skillchecks normally contains a difficultpart and a resistancepart. To be able to overcome the difficulty of a certain task you should only be able to use the skill not an ability or other. The ability or modifiers or other are only usable to combat resistance or maybe other hazards( GM discretion) The cost too by an abilitymodifiers should therefore change to match the abilityscore. So if you have a strenght of two it would cost +2 to the skill up to a maximun of +5. An example: a character is is about to use acrobatics to get down in an alley. He has a agility score of 3 and a acrobatics of 3. The GM decides that the difficulty is only two to get down but it is dark outside adding two and it's slippery down in the alley unknown to the character adding two more. The character spends thre stones in acrobatics and three in agilty to add to the acrobatics. The amount of stones placed in acrobatics is enough to combat the difficulty of the move but scinve it's dark outside and the GM decides that stones in agility doesn't help combat that the character fails but only barley with probalby no damage. Now consider the same but it's light outside. The character jumps down to the bottom of the alley, there he encounter the slippery alleyfloor but stones put in agility should combat that the GM decides so the character clears the jump with no problem with two stones from the acrobatics and two from the agility. Now over to the second topic. I understand the logic behind the designdecision but it still feels wrong with hitting the opponent and damageing him is solved by the same stones. Maybe I'm just oldshool  The question is if anyone have developed an alternative to the canonrule. I've just thought about it so far but haven't come up with anything other then some basic stuff. Reflexive to avoid and toughness to soak. Skill to hit and weapon/ability to damage. Please post your comment/critisism/flames or whatever / Urgat |
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Post by sgingell on Jan 24, 2006 19:31:04 GMT -5
As the rules stand in the book all ready you can not use an attribute bonus to overcome difficulty.
If you have Thieving: 3 with an Agility bonus and an Agility of 5, you can chip away at resistance by 8 stones per panel, but you won't ever be able to overcome a difficulty: 4 lock.
As far as separating accuracy stones from damage stones, I'm all for it. I just don't see a graceful way to do it. Really in general I'd like to separate Power and Control in all sorts of areas. An AN 9 force blast currently means you have both freakish accuracy and control (i.e. Can hit someone with 8 stones from Speed shifted into defense) as well as freakish power (i.e. Can injure someone with Toughness +8). It would be nice if the system had some natural way to represent the very common comic book convention of the young hero with vast power but no control.
If you come up with something I'd certainly be interested to see it. I've always given it up as too much work since you would more or less have to rewrite and re balance all the CADs if not big chunks of the system as well.
-Stephen
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Post by piratespice on Jan 25, 2006 2:18:48 GMT -5
As the rules stand in the book all ready you can not use an attribute bonus to overcome difficulty. If you have Thieving: 3 with an Agility bonus and an Agility of 5, you can chip away at resistance by 8 stones per panel, but you won't ever be able to overcome a difficulty: 4 lock. To be fair to urgat, the Game Guide actually says just the opposite. Sadly, the only place it is covered (and by all means correct me if I've missed it elsewhere) is at the bottom of the D&R Chart, where it specifically states Ability Bonuses are used for overcoming Difficulty. That being said, I believe overturning this decision is the first house rule that every MURPG player in existence adopted.  As for splitting accuracy and power...I've come to the same conclusion as sgingell. It would require a major revamp of the system -- basically a rewrite of the entire Game Guide -- which is something I'm not willing to do (...yet). |
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Post by Kaimontfendo on Jan 25, 2006 3:06:12 GMT -5
Well, the first thing I'd suggest is adding Armor Penetration, and perhaps "causes collateral damage".
However, you could always make up new disadvantage "bad aim" or something, which causes defensive stones from Rexlexive Dodge (and probably any actively allocated stones) to count double (or triple, or more) against your Attack, but not against the damage. (If anyone wants me to explain more than that, I'll do it later.)
As for the idea of using skill to hit and a weapon modifier as damage, I'd considered that, too, but then there's almost no way to hurt someone with toughness of 4 or more. And it means you'd need a starhip laser to damage the Hulk, which hardly seems right.
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Post by urgat on Jan 25, 2006 4:14:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies.
The end of the D&R chart is the only place I remember having seen how it works. But considering what you have been saying I think the problem is solved (for me anyway) especially if everyone already uses it as an houserule.
Maybe it's is to much work changing the spliltting of stones, I haven't thought it through yet.
Kaimontfendo bring up some intresting points but scince the CADs are written up using the current rules it's not as important as you say. If hulk can't be damaged by anything less than a starshipcannon then reduce his toughness. By the way, I might point out that I don't care any for the already written CADS scince I wont ever use them which would reduce the amount of work somewhat with the conversion.
Problems I see at the moment: if someone has adequete defence you wont be able to hit him however you do. Obvisouly a GM should use the general pool to add or remove depending on what the players are doing but if you have 5 in closecombat you wont be able to hit anyone with a defence of 5 or more as a rule of thumb.
If ability is used for damage, should a character with 7 in strenght actually get 7 free stone fore damage?
If a weapon is doing one stone of damage or 4 is irrelevant as both would deal 1 white stone of damage. Not quite true scince bodyarmor and toughness could be useful in different values but you get the point.
As a final note. The inability to damage anyone with a toughness of 4 or more. Firstly I belive that a toughness of four is pretty sturdy so a normal person shouldn't be able to. Second, most guns have 2*damage so a rifle that deals three stones of damage against a target that doesn't reduce the *2 multiplier is hit with six stones. A severe blow. Now granted closecombat is an entire differnt matter but strenght should matter somehow. Targeting, claws should also be able to go towards damage.
/ Urgat
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Post by rennyn on Jan 25, 2006 4:38:24 GMT -5
Someone with Toughness 4 who gets hit by a 2x damage Rifle that deals 3 stones, takes no damage. Only damage that gets past defense is doubled.
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Post by piratespice on Jan 25, 2006 15:03:40 GMT -5
Obvisouly a GM should use the general pool to add or remove depending on what the players are doing but if you have 5 in closecombat you wont be able to hit anyone with a defence of 5 or more as a rule of thumb. Yes and no. There are a lot more factors involved. First of all, there's the Ability Bonus. Then you have to consider your Energy Pool (higher Action Numbers won't mean nearly as much if you don't have the Energy to put into the Action), and then you've got Specialties and other Situational Modifiers. Situational Modifiers are very important consideration. I feel they aren't emphasized enough in the Game Guides. The GM should constantly be considering how the circumstances affect actions, and apply Situational Bonuses and Penalties as appropriate. These are what shake things up and turn typical, repetitive scenes into dynamic, unpredictable encounters. |
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Post by Scriptus on Jan 26, 2006 1:45:42 GMT -5
If ability is used for damage, should a character with 7 in strenght actually get 7 free stone fore damage? If a weapon is doing one stone of damage or 4 is irrelevant as both would deal 1 white stone of damage. Not quite true scince bodyarmor and toughness could be useful in different values but you get the point. / Urgat couple of clarifications 1. ability bonuses aren't free stones you still have to spend them from you energy reserves to use them. example: Super Strong Guy with a close combat of 3 and a strength of 7 has to spend 10 stones from his energy reserve to use his close combat to it's full potential. 2. 4 red stones would do 2 white stones of damage where 3 red stones would only do 1 white stone of damage. |
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Post by urgat on Jan 26, 2006 12:52:45 GMT -5
Ah, it's seems we have a misunderstaninding here. The "problems" I wrote about were about me trying to change the rules to incorperate both accuracystones and damagestones. Thinking out loud that is all, hoped maybe to have somone to throw ideas at. I apoligize for not being clear enough and thanks for the replies nontheless. But upon further thinking I probably have to agree with sgingell and piratespice, it's to much work.
I'll be back if I have come any further with it.
You are right about the second part Scriptus; 4 red equals two white in damage. I rememberd incorrectly.
/ Urgat
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Post by quixoteles on May 20, 2006 22:05:18 GMT -5
It would be nice if the system had some natural way to represent the very common comic book convention of the young hero with vast power but no control. Make a challenge called ..young, and inexperienced in use these amazing new powers. As the rules state, you only need to do something and invest a line or two in it to get it at basic skill. Powers are really exotic things. You literally have a capability that perhaps no one on earth can teach you about. Magneto can't lecture the biokenetic about their their powers. No matter how good he is it is more art than science. The resistance mods for someone that are discovering their powers in game should run up to like 5 max. A GM of mean places it at + 3 resistance for every use of the power till their character is not a noob anymore. Use those challenges man. They're important. Life blood of the game they are. Mutant makes a game. Duty makes a game. The powers are secondary almost. The Challenge is as an important characteristic as the limit of nine or the trinity of mod-action-stat. They're there for a reason. Use them! |
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Post by andyman on Dec 3, 2006 21:55:03 GMT -5
urgat,
How about this? When a player allocates stones for an attack, ask them how many of the stones are to make sure you hit the enemy, and how many stones are for damaging the enemy. However, there is a limit to the number of stones that can be used for each.
- To hit, this limit is an action or ability that makes sense for hitting, plus applicable modifiers. (combats, agility, speed, targeting)
-To damage, the limit is an action or ability that makes sense for damaging, plus applicable modifiers. (close combat, strength, durability, weapon modifier)
When a character is shifting stones to defense, ask how many stones are for dodging, and how many stones are for blocking.
- To avoid being hit, this limit is an action or ability that makes sense for dodging, plus applicable modifiers. (combats, agility, speed, reflexive dodge)
-To avoid damage, the limit is an action or ability that makes sense for blocking, plus applicable modifiers. (close combat, strength, durability, toughness*)
Example:
Hulk tries to punch Spider-Man for 13 stones of Close Combat damage. He tries his best to hit Spider-man, but this is only 4 stones for Speed, the other 9 stones are all damage. Spider-Man has a reflexive dodge of 3, so Hulk can hit Spider-Man, if Spidey doesn't allocate any stones to defense. (As-if he'd ever do that.) This is why in the comics Hulk tries for Area Attacks against Spider-man. (He can't reflexively dodge that.)
*Note: The attacker may state that a defense modifier like toughness is being overcome as part of "to-hit" stones because they are aiming at a weakness in the defense, however only the attacker can choose to make this change with GM approval.)
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