|
|
Post by agentofshield on Nov 6, 2008 22:37:42 GMT -5
I think the writers of the core rulebook shortchanged Steve Rogers. Does anyone think these revisions are out of line?
Intelligence: 4 rather than 2. Cap should have at least 3; even the Blob has that much, and we're talking about a man who has peak human brain efficiency.
Close Combat: 8 rather than 7. A fair amount of people have 7 Close Combat, and Cap widely cited as the pre-eminent unarmed combatant on the planet. Possibly instead extend the +2 Targeting bonus from just shield throwing to also shield fighting.
Leadership: 8 rather than 5. Cap is also widely cited as being the best leader in the Marvel Universe, and it irritates me to see Cyclops with a 7 over Cap's 5. A fair number of leaders have a rank 5 skill, and I strongly feel he should be better. Maybe we should kick Cyke down to 6 and have Cap at 7.
Additional social skills: Legal/police procedures, SHIELD protocol, Diplomacy
Equipment: Van, Motorcycle
|
|
|
|
Post by chaosbringer on Nov 9, 2008 0:11:08 GMT -5
Flat out, this is exactly the type of post that bothers me. To often do I have to read, "this character's my favorite so that means he's better then everyone else at everything."
1: I don't see his Int score coming into play that much, since he's more of a wise leader, fall back on my training type rather than a figure out complicated problems on the fly type. When things get to complicated Cap Am tends to simplify them by cutting through the B-S and keeping a level head.
2: CC:7 represents the best in the world. Unfortunately, in Marvel U, much like the real world it's not that cut and dry, with many characters laying claim to that title and since no two styles are exactly the same they all may be right.
3: Cap Am leads the Avengers which only have seven active members at a given time including him. There is no applicable reason for him to have more than a 6. Cyclops, on the other hand, has the unenviable duty of managing a much larger roster, with not only the X-men, but the students and various offshoot teams as well. Also while widely praised as being inspirational in battle, the Avengers seem to split up, disbanded, or disassembled every two to three years, where as the X-men, despite several roster changes, have never give up the dream. Who do you think is really benefiting from better leadership? (Side note: while Cap Am's CAD has a variety of good abilities and possibly the single greatest gear/wpn in the game, all Cyc really had going for him was a poorly worked force blast and his leadership. Leave the guy something.)
The rest are so minor and mundane I don't foresee any GM arguing with, or even caring about, you making those changes.
I hope your Cap Am has fun on his little scooter.
|
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Nov 9, 2008 7:42:52 GMT -5
I agree that Cap's intelligence has never been shown to be all that high... 2 is fine.
You're correct about his Close Combat... he and Wolverine should both have 8, each with separate options (Wolverine X3 damage and Cap Attack vs. Enemy Ability) to denote the variance in their styles.
Leadership... as much as I love Cap, I gotta disagree with you on. Captain America is not a better leader than Cyclops. He should be about on par with Cyclops, but for different reasons. Cyclops is actually the better tactician, but Captain America is inherently inspiring to those he leads. I'd actually like to see Cap with Leadership 4, AaM.
As far as Vehicle Ops... I don't think "van" is a separate specialty, but he should certainly have motorcycle.
|
|
|
|
Post by MadCap on Nov 9, 2008 22:20:08 GMT -5
I agree that Cap's intelligence has never been shown to be all that high... 2 is fine. You're correct about his Close Combat... he and Wolverine should both have 8, each with separate options (Wolverine X3 damage and Cap Attack vs. Enemy Ability) to denote the variance in their styles. Leadership... as much as I love Cap, I gotta disagree with you on. Captain America is not a better leader than Cyclops. He should be about on par with Cyclops, but for different reasons. Cyclops is actually the better tactician, but Captain America is inherently inspiring to those he leads. I'd actually like to see Cap with Leadership 4, AaM. As far as Vehicle Ops... I don't think "van" is a separate specialty, but he should certainly have motorcycle. Wolverine is not a Close combat 8 guy. Please don't buy into the hype.  Save yourself! Wolverine while talented is a little overrated. He just has very sharp claws, unbreakable bones, and ornery. Healing factor covers up a lot of his mistakes. He isn't the ultimate warrior though. Capt America is a better fighter than Wolverine. Especially in the Ultimate universe. I believe Wolverine is like 0-3 in the fights I have seen him go up against the Cap there. Of course that Cap makes the main universe Cap look like a complete wuss. He is a lot more meaner, and imho is a more accurate portrayal of what Capt America, a combat vet and spec ops soldier should be like. The 646 Cap I feel is completely unrealistic. Violence can solve problems was the popular viewpoint then. And killing the bad guy was viewed as perfectly acceptable especially if the bad guy is judged to deserve it. The 646 Steve Rogers Capt America never did reflect that. He seemed to be perpetually stuck in Kiddie Comic mode. Now Cap with a CC of 8.... I can actually see some justification. He has done it long enough. But not Wolverine. I swear given enough time, Marvel will have him walking on water and converting water into wine or at least Beer.  As for the leadership thingie, I think Scott's higher leadership score is actually a reflection on Cyke's greater tactical acumen. Leadership in MURPG is not just straight Charisma but also coming up with a good plan, and directing combat. I think we had a similiar discussion not that long ago.. MadCap |
|
|
|
Post by agentofshield on Nov 10, 2008 1:01:38 GMT -5
Well, although I do like Cap, I wouldn't call him my favorite - otherwise my username would be Sentinel of Liberty or something. I certainly don't think I'm making him "better than everyone else at everything", though. And yes, several of those changes were minor and mundane, but I don't think that discounts them. The Avengers also don't disband "every two to three years"...but hey. And yes, he will have fun on his scooter...but not as much fun as in the movie, where he used his shield as a windshield. ;-)
Yeah, 8 Leadership is a bit high, upon reflection. I still think 7 is a tad high for Scott, though I do realize he kind of sucks without it. C'est la vie. I was thinking that Iron Man should have some Leadership, but that would probably make him way too good in his Powered Armor.
And yeah - Wolverine is perpetually getting more powerful, as well as more ubiquitous. I heard the new cartoon has the name "Wolverine and the X-Men"...oi vey.
|
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Nov 10, 2008 6:36:32 GMT -5
Wolverine is not a Close combat 8 guy. Please don't buy into the hype. I think its fairly well known that I don't like Wolverine all that much, so this is not coming from a fanboy place... Wolverine has been stated in... I don't know, probably thousands of sources, to be as great an expert on Close Combat techniques as exists within the Marvel Universe. According to the Weapon X mini-series from way back when, he had a multitude of fighting systems "uploaded" directly to his brain while at Weapon X. *shrugs* |
|
|
|
Post by MadCap on Nov 10, 2008 23:57:02 GMT -5
Wolverine is not a Close combat 8 guy. Please don't buy into the hype. I think its fairly well known that I don't like Wolverine all that much, so this is not coming from a fanboy place... Wolverine has been stated in... I don't know, probably thousands of sources, to be as great an expert on Close Combat techniques as exists within the Marvel Universe. According to the Weapon X mini-series from way back when, he had a multitude of fighting systems "uploaded" directly to his brain while at Weapon X. *shrugs* Ok I seem to have lost my original reply due to connection problems.  I know you don't like Wolverine, but I feel Wolverine isn't a close combat 8 guy. I don't think Wolverine is even the best fighter in the current Marvel continuum. It isn't even a given that Cap is a close combat 8 guy. And he is the most likely candidate of the Earth 646 guys. Or at least the way Marvel makes it seem. The way I interpret CC8, is that is that you are a truly legendary warrior type. Your close combat ability is seen MAYBE once every few centuries. Please note the emphasis on maybe. It is for the likes of Achilles and maybe Musashi. And when someone of CC 8 is dead, the next best guy doesn't automatically inherits the score either. It is not compulsory that someone has CC 8 at any time. It isn't a rank. Also I feel at least the OP is not giving people with Close Combat 7 enough credit. It is extremely rare for anyone to have such a high score. The way I see CC 7, there maybe only 10, 15 people (and it isn't a fixed number) in the world with CC 7 at any one time. It is literally 'best of the best' and not just some gung ho hyperbole. It isn't something you can be just with some perseverence and experience. It takes genuine talent in fighting that is rarely seen. Taking the example of Achilles. It is generally accepted that Hector was the second best fighter in the world in his day. Hector should have a 7. And yet while Achilles was sulking in his tent, Hector was unstoppable. A person with CC 7 is supposed to be that good. As for the whole 'hardwired with countless fighting styles' thing WK. I don't believe that is justification for a CC score of 8 either. If not you can make way in the podium for the likes of Taskmaster and Echo and anyone with photographic reflexes. Knowing 1000 ways to kick a guy doesn't make you the best kicker in the world. It just means you know 1000 way to kick a guy. I would like to point out to you that both the Beetle and Iron Man have at one point or other programmed various fighting styles into their Power Armor. Does that mean they potentially have CC of 8 just by having enough memory and styles in the old hard drive? MadCap |
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Nov 11, 2008 6:35:16 GMT -5
If not for the fact that Thing... THING!... you know, the guy who has exactly one move... (haymaker punch) has Close Combat 7, I'd agree with your post. The only reason I said Cap/Wolvie should be 8 is because a number of people who have clearly been demonstrated not to have nearly the fighting skill of Cap & Wolverine also have 7.
The problem with this system is that there is no value difference between skill and talent. The Thing and Thor have never really shown themselves to be particularly good in a fist fight, other than possessing enormous strength & resiliency. But if you gave them the AN 2 or 3 ratings they deserve, even with their strength, they wouldn't be able to throw enough stones to do the kind of damage we see them handing out in the comics.
|
|
|
|
Post by MadCap on Nov 11, 2008 20:07:02 GMT -5
If not for the fact that Thing... THING!... you know, the guy who has exactly one move... (haymaker punch) has Close Combat 7, I'd agree with your post. The only reason I said Cap/Wolvie should be 8 is because a number of people who have clearly been demonstrated not to have nearly the fighting skill of Cap & Wolverine also have 7. The problem with this system is that there is no value difference between skill and talent. The Thing and Thor have never really shown themselves to be particularly good in a fist fight, other than possessing enormous strength & resiliency. But if you gave them the AN 2 or 3 ratings they deserve, even with their strength, they wouldn't be able to throw enough stones to do the kind of damage we see them handing out in the comics. Then the CAD of the Thing is wrong. Which has been known to happen in the main rulebook.  7 seems too high for the orange guy. I've always thought his CC action score was 6 and even there I thought that was quite a stretch. Though I have seen the Thing rip off various Pro Wrestling moves in his Unlimited Wrestling days. I really thought that was an awful story arc, but that was during Hulk Hogan's heyday. Plus in the Earth champions vs. The Champion (the Elder of the Universe) annual issue. He did very well in the boxing ring against the Champion in a pure boxing match. Better than Thor and the Hulk, who were both disqualified. Thor's CC score has always been somewhat a conflict for me as well. The score is on account that he is a God and he has been fighting for centuries. The only time I have seen him fight with any skill is when he fights in Asgard, during his young Thor days and against things he isn't quite nigh invulnerable against.. So I know the ability is there, but the moment he goes against someone like the Hulk, he pretty much just fights according to their level. Ditto for Hercules, who at least according to legend should be the best boxer and wrestler to ever walk the Earth. Moreover he is supposed to be the inventor of Pankration, the granddaddy of all MMA. I have yet to see much those skills in the comics though. Pretty much brawling cover to cover. You could always knock their scores down as a penalty, until they start showing the goods. MadCap |
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Nov 11, 2008 20:26:10 GMT -5
I don't get the theory that time, even time spent fighting, automatically makes you a better fighter. I practiced and sparred every day from the time I was 11 till about 30 years old. I even entered tournaments (and won my weight class twice). I can pretty much guarantee that a 20 year old Royce Gracie or Tito Ortiz would have ripped a 30 year old Tedd a new one, without qualification.
Experience is a good teacher... but its not the be all end all. Thor can swing his hammer 10,000 times a day for 10,000 years... it'll never make him a more skilled fighter than someone like Wolverine who has been trained and programmed to kill.
|
|
|
|
Post by MadCap on Nov 11, 2008 21:40:48 GMT -5
I don't get the theory that time, even time spent fighting, automatically makes you a better fighter. I practiced and sparred every day from the time I was 11 till about 30 years old. I even entered tournaments (and won my weight class twice). I can pretty much guarantee that a 20 year old Royce Gracie or Tito Ortiz would have ripped a 30 year old Tedd a new one, without qualification. Experience is a good teacher... but its not the be all end all. Thor can swing his hammer 10,000 times a day for 10,000 years... it'll never make him a more skilled fighter than someone like Wolverine who has been trained and programmed to kill. I think it is supposed to reflect the idea that in all that time fighting you experience many different things and in doing so, the next time you encounter a similiar situation you know how to react accordingly. It is also assumed the person actually learns from his experiences. You can thank most RP games for this idea that loads of experience automatically results in a better warrior. Besides Thor has been trained to kill. They didn't exactly go for KOs during Nordic times. He spent that time killing things, not knocking things out. Also with regards to Thor, you fail to account for the fact that Thor's pretty much immortal. Taking your example, you are dealing with a 30 year old (actually 3000 year old) fighter with all the experience and knowledge, in a body of a 20 year old. Nasty stuff. MadCap |
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Nov 11, 2008 22:03:33 GMT -5
I still don't think Thor has ever been shown to be world class, in terms of actual skill. He's strong and can take a beating, but he doesn't have the learned ability of the top fighters in Marvel. If you use 7 as the baseline for "the best", I'd put Thor at 5
|
|
|
|
Post by MadCap on Nov 12, 2008 11:35:39 GMT -5
I still don't think Thor has ever been shown to be world class, in terms of actual skill. He's strong and can take a beating, but he doesn't have the learned ability of the top fighters in Marvel. If you use 7 as the baseline for "the best", I'd put Thor at 5 Like I said, the only times I have seen him display skill is in the Thor during his days in Asgard flashbacks. He actually dodges and parries and stuff like that!  And you do notice he almost never misses with that lousy hammer there. It seems every time he crosses over the rainbow Bifrost bridge he leaves his skills behind in Valhalla. Drop his skill if you feel like it. Or leave his CC at 7 but only when he is in Asgard! ;D MadCap |
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Nov 12, 2008 11:38:40 GMT -5
Like I said, the only times I have seen him display skill is in the Thor during his days in Asgard flashbacks. It seems every time he crosses over the rainbow Bifrost bridge he leaves his skills behind in Valhalla. MadCap Crossing the bridge causes skill loss... bummer  |
|
|
|
Post by shadowagent on Nov 20, 2008 5:02:36 GMT -5
house rule for Force Blasts... 1 stone in FB = 2 stones effect value... Cyke is again effective... and give Cyke a targeting of 2 for petes sake.
As far as Cap is concerned in both normal and ultimates, Cap is the best fighter known on earth, (Short of maybe Thor or Hercules skillwise) 8 isnt a far shot, otherwise his write up is perfect, dont knock a good thing.
|
|
Save yourself! Wolverine while talented is a little overrated. He just has very sharp claws, unbreakable bones, and ornery. Healing factor covers up a lot of his mistakes. He isn't the ultimate warrior though.
7 seems too high for the orange guy. I've always thought his CC action score was 6 and even there I thought that was quite a stretch. 
And you do notice he almost never misses with that lousy hammer there.