|
Post by WildKnight on Oct 21, 2011 12:11:41 GMT -5
Frank Miller’s Dark Knight Returns sells better than his Year One story even though Year One is the better story. Identity Crisis was apparently a huge sales hit. Loeb’s Superman/Batman was a top ten seller. Most comic fans are stupid. Guess that includes me, because I loved Identity Crisis. (Haven't read much if any of Loeb's Superman/Batman, and I'm flabbergasted about Dark Knight Returns being more popular than Year One, but hey, no accounting for taste). I liked Hush. I think it did a lot of things well that previous Batman stories had done very poorly. I tend to be very picky about my Batman stories, because I like the character mostly in theory. In practice, Batman has pretty much always sucked.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2011 16:14:50 GMT -5
Another great thing about the 90's was the Playstation, and N64. I still have my Final Fantasy VII T-Shirt I got when I Pre-Ordered the game. I also loved The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time for the N64. Also people still had jobs. Yup
|
|
|
Post by Beacon on Oct 22, 2011 12:02:53 GMT -5
Guess that includes me, because I loved Identity Crisis. I was going to try to engage in some tactful backtracking but then it hit me that I do actually think you’re stupid for liking Identity Crisis. The first arc had a lot of elements* that could have been awesome under the right writer. Loeb was not the right writer. *The World’s Finest deciding to take down President Luthor. Hero against hero. A giant robot Composite Superman. The second arc introduced the new Supergirl … who is basically a skank version of the pre-Crisis one. The only other S/B stories I’ve read were the annuals Joe Kelly wrote (which were great) I don’t think it’s so much that Batman stories tend to suck as it is that there are more monthly books about him than there are good story ideas. You tend to run into that with characters that get oversaturated. (Also for a long time the ancillary books like Nightwing, Birds of Prey, Robin/Red Robin, Millar’s Batgirl, Brubaker’s Catwoman, and Gotham Central were better than the actual Batman books)
|
|
|
Post by Jet on Oct 24, 2011 12:52:23 GMT -5
Yeah, the best thing I like about Batman is his supporting cast. I read Robin, Batgirl (with Cassandra Cain) and Birds of Prey. And they were all much better then any Batman story I've read in my life. Probably becouse they had something different than what I see in every single movie/cartoon/game about Batman I've been seeing for past 24 years (which is how old I am).
Or, in case Im too subtle again- Batman is getting boring. Its really bad when I consider "Bruce Wayne getting over his parents death" an actual "progress" of the character.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Oct 24, 2011 12:54:48 GMT -5
Its really bad when I consider "Bruce Wayne getting over his parents death" an actual "progress" of the character. It is progress for the character. It's just really bad for the concept. If he were really over his parents' deaths and now was just fighting crime because he doesn't like crime, he really should consider killing criminals.
|
|
|
Post by Beacon on Oct 24, 2011 13:15:24 GMT -5
On Batgirl: I’m partial to Stephanie Brown myself. Regardless, I think Babs becoming Batgirl is a HUGE step backward. I like Barbara and I like her as Batgirl but she’s moved past that.
On Batman’s Motivation: I always interpreted Batman as a guy who just wants to keep crime from orphaning any more children. That’s why he takes so many of them in. If all he wanted was to avenge his parents then he would have quit when Joe Chill died*. WildKnight covered why “doesn't like crime” doesn’t work outside the Punisher.
*I don’t know if he’s even still in continuity. I hope he does. Continuing the fight after Joe is out of the picture makes Batman a stronger character.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Oct 24, 2011 13:21:24 GMT -5
The reason he doesn't kill has always been tied directly to his parents' murder, though, rather than a broader "I don't want people to suffer" type mentality. If he doesn't care about his parents' murder anymore, he shouldn't mind killing people.
Anyone that smart should be able to figure out the basic math; Joker is responsible for thousands of deaths and breaks out of every prison they put him in. Killing him is the obvious solution.
Have they explained Barbara being able to walk at all? Or was she just never paralyzed?
|
|
|
Post by Beacon on Oct 24, 2011 13:31:23 GMT -5
Anyone that smart should be able to figure out the basic math; Joker is responsible for thousands of deaths and breaks out of every prison they put him in. Killing him is the obvious solution. Batman can claim to be a grim vigilante all he wants but he has a pretty basic superhero morality. Part of that is that he doesn’t kill. I can live with that even if it doesn’t make sense if you really think about it. However, Gotham cops (especially Jim Gordon) not killing the Joker for the sake of the public good is a HUGE plot hole. I haven’t read the book but I was under the impression (based on interviews and whatnot) that the Killing Joke happened, she was in the chair for a while (no idea if she was Oracle), and started to walk again after years of physical therapy.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Oct 24, 2011 13:54:18 GMT -5
I'm not real hung up on Babs walking one way or another, though I've seen some butthurt over it on the internet. I was just wondering if it was explained or just whitewashed.
I don't have a problem with Batman not killing people. I like that heroes don't kill people. I do have a problem with the notion that we're supposed to believe that Batman is different from the other heroes he works with because he's so grimdark and brutal... but he won't kill people.
I also never really understood why, a few years ago, when they decided it was okay for Superman to start killing people (when he executed the AltZod), he didn't just make a quick trip to Gotham and take out Joker.
|
|
|
Post by shenron on Oct 24, 2011 15:03:52 GMT -5
I just picked up Batman #1 and #2. I have not read them yet but I am exited. Maybe tonight. Ya, I have decided I am only reading 2 of the new 52 line. I cannot have a thousand subscriptions. 5 is enough for me.
|
|
|
Post by Jet on Oct 24, 2011 15:11:17 GMT -5
The Red Hood movie touched it a bit. In the ending, when Jason had Joker on his crosshair, he asked Batman why he didnt kill him. When confronted with "killing is bad", Jason replied something along the line of "dont kill anybody, leave those that CAN be turned good to police, like Dent, Riddler or Penguin, and get rid only of the ones that cant be helped". Hate to admit it, but I agree with what Jason Todd said and the only reason Batman even has his "never kill" policy isnt becouse his parents are dead or that he's insane. Its becouse if Joker was dead, there wouldnt be more Joker stories. Its a lost cause.
|
|
|
Post by shenron on Oct 25, 2011 17:23:51 GMT -5
I scanned the pages but I did not see or I missed the discussion about Teen Titans. Any good? I have always been a Tim Drake fan.
|
|
|
Post by Jet on Oct 26, 2011 15:52:28 GMT -5
Tim Drak is my favourite comic book character ever... but Im scared to look at anything that has "Teen Titans" and "Tim Drake" together. Bad aftertaste from past.
|
|
|
Post by WildKnight on Oct 26, 2011 16:08:45 GMT -5
The new costume doesn't bother you, but him being a Titan does? ;D
|
|
|
Post by Beacon on Oct 26, 2011 19:10:56 GMT -5
Is it really that different from the Red Robin costume he wore in the series he had right before the reboot?
That Red Robin series was great BTW. It’s a shame that Tim and Steph didn’t get to keep their ongoings after the reboot. Still, at least they’re doing SOMETHING with Tim (though I have a lot less faith in Lobdell than Nicieza)
But yeah, the re-reboot Teen Titans series made really poor use of Tim (and Bart and Cassie and Superboy).
|
|