How you play...

[Gryphynx]

After having posted my post about starting a new game, I received a rather insultive reply (albeit, probably not intended to be insulting) about "your post about min-maxing. Screams to me powergamer" in my message box, telling me he doesn't want me in his game. It got me thinking a bit, and wondering if this group has turned into the Elitest style gamer that the reply intones or not.

I'm not sure min-maxxing and power-gamer are even remotely the same thing. While power-gamers do indeed requisite themselves to min-maxxing, min-maxxing is, in my opinion, the desire to fine-tune a character so well that there's just no room for improvement (thematically). It is NOT about trying to see how many stones to can allocate to Offense or Defense. It's about, again in my opinion, making sure the mechanics of your character can do everything your mind's eye view of the character can do (or at least put him on track, and let LoE finish it off in future games).

And if that means pouring 35 of your 40 points into a single power, so be it. If that means 7 of your 9 Actions are 'power' Actions, again, so be it. As long as the character is as you imagine him to be.

To me, the most important thing about any game is that all the players (or myself) have fun. I spend hours building a character, min-maxxing it to great detail, until he's a flowing piece of art. I sit back and draw each character a ton of times (because I'm a really horrible artist that makes a 5 year old look skilled), and don't care how sucky the images are because it's part of the character. And by the time I play, I know the character so well, having fine-tuned him to such detail, that I never again have to look at my character sheet (at least, not until a few months after I've quit playing him).

If you build the 'perfect' character, and I don't mean the most powerful, I mean the most perfectly fitting to that mind's eye view of your character, you'll love playing him much more than some generic, 5 minute character creation effort. Hell, you'll be the last one to even consider leaving a game, wishing you could post multiple times a day. I'm heart broken when one of my creations die, or worse, when a campaign finishes and he's retired.

So what's with the Elitism? Why are there posts like "Characters with Healing Factor, Accelerated are not allowed, because too many characters are turned in with that Modifier"? I mean, even as an Elitest, you'd think Theme would be more important than what Modifiers or Actions a person takes. And if everyone had a theme for such a Healing Factor, sounds like the GM should run a very combat-heavy game since that seems to be what the players want.

A lot of what I read on these forums razz's me the wrong way, the community I use to hang out with here were all about fun (well, mostly, there was one guy who just wanted to argue every single rule). Is that really the majority? Or just the loudest voices? And what's up with the prejudgemental attitude? Because someone encourages min-maxxing in another post, let's assume that they'll "power gamer" in your game?!? Let's not look and see how they play, and if they do play a little mechanic-heavy, handle it in-game through power reductions, environmental modifiers, etc, etc...

Hmmm, I'm probably ranting more than anything, so should just leave it be. I hate having spent hours on a character to be told I'm not allowed to play because he thinks I'll maybe be a power gamer. o.O

[Brainstem]

How long were you off the boards? I only vaguely recognize the username, which means that we probably never played in any games together (you might remember be better as a theme and variation of names based on SuperBro or Brainstem) and/or it's been a while and my memory, which I was once proud of, has gone to shit. That said, there have been a few House Rules that have become more or less standard that eliminate some of the twinking people assume go on (not to say you're taking part in this, but a sheet with the HR'd out options can look a little sketch.

Likewise, a GM not accepting a character could have more to it than thinking you're a power gamer. Sometimes the concept doesn't mesh with what the GM is looking for, sometimes the character is too min-maxed (making it shine over others in many situations, making the other players feel impotent), and sometimes the GM just gets a little cautious with the players compared to the sheets. I know that there are posters on this board that I would trust with that Darkness's Shadow sheet of yours, but I wouldn't trust most others with it simply because it's so powerful that I could see most players being abusive with it. Now, I'm not familiar with your playstyle, but I would likely nix it for the reasons I mentioned in its thread: the stone output is simply too high for 0 effort and it would shift the balance of the game. Sure, if all of the sheets are built that way, maybe my game should change focus. Then again, we all have better things to do than run a game that doesn't really fit what we're looking for.

As a final note, I think the term you should use, rather than min-maxing, is optimizing. Optimization doesn't carry the negative connotation of min-maxing since it emphasizes the concept more than the numbers. A min-maxed character, as I see it, is one that pumps everything into one or two abilities and scraps the rest; through min-maxing, you wind up with a team of heroes that have little to no practical use outside of one function (not even in a heroic sense but in an any sense). Through optimization, a sheet is made to match its concept and reflects this in its build. For examples of things recently posted on the board, just check out your Darkness's Shadow (optimized) compared to Human Hero, Jak (strangely min-maxed yet gimped at the same time). One is built strong with a clear concept in mind where the other just looks like a slapping of different powers onto a single sheet.

[Jet]

Can I ask you to share this CAD here? I dont really like to judge people without knowing the cause.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just found it.
murpg.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Original&action=display&thread=14791

And... geez man, where do I begin?

First of, the concept is pretty solid. Teenager with great powers he cant control, making him dangerous to others. Seen it milion times, but that doesnt make it bad.

The problem is however... wow, I've seen a lot of overpowered characters in my life (half of them were Gig's/Stark's creations) but this is just insane. Lets count the ways why GM's wont want him in their games:
1. Inteligence. Having high int regen isnt anything new or bad. Having THAT plus Inteligence based combat (passable, if questionable) along with Psycho-Centric Template AND Psi-Weapon on the other hand means that no matter what if thrown at you, it'll be obliterated without you even trying. Magneto, band of Sentinels, raging Hulk- all with get down with one or two shots. As a GM, would you like a character who can do that in your game, EVEN if player says that they wont use it like that?

2. Telepathy and Telekinesis on low levels seem alright... untill you realize Psycho-Centric Template is still there, making these options powerful as hell (Telepathy only applies to communications, so it isnt a big deal).

3. Static defense of 8. Thats a lot, to say the least. Hardly anything in the world will ever touch you, much less villains made by GM. Unless you dont mind GM throwing area effects or AP every single adventure just so you'll have a challange.

4. You yourself said in the thread you can easily muster 29 attack without much effort. Yeaaah... Face it, even when you do get into a game, you'll encounter enemies that will counter it rather easily, if only becouse GM's cheat. Always. I know I do, but only when it makes for a better story (judging from 3 years of Peacesavers!, it worked perfectly). The problem?
Other players will face your problems as well, GM will cheat for them as well and everything will look downright awful. Balance isnt always required (ask Justice League or Avengers), but in RPG's at least have other players at considerations.

5. Even if people wont say anything, other players will hate your characters guts just becouse you can do everything better. And dont get me with "but my character is flawed, he cant do anything" argument, becouse the bulk of every superhero game is "fighting", like it or not (at least, thats why most of our actions are combat related, and not gardening or piano playing).

Bottom line- get over it man. Being criticized or refused isnt the end of the world, so stop treating it like it is.

[Brainstem]

I'm a little curious which game you sent this CAD in for that got it rejected.

[Gryphynx]

Playa, Shadow was actually made to be overpowered, as a joke that the GM told me to play to show me that it wasnt. He was never submitted for a game here.

XRob, he said it was because I was a power gamer.

Anyhows, I was a bit peeved at being called a power gamer and vented on here when I shouldnt have. While I can definitely power game with the best of them, this round I had made a character with no offensive capabilities, and had even intentionally powered him down before initially turning him in because I felt he was too powerful defensively. Moot point though, the guy lost any respect I might have ever had for him, and I wont be dumb enough to try to join a game he runs. That is just the end of it as far as I am concerned.

[Brainstem]

It still stands, would you mind posting the sheet? We'd definitely be able to give you a more critical response if we could see what you're working with. Sometimes you can make a sheet that, even if powered down, winds up more powerful than you had anticipated. I built a sheet for a game on here a few years back that was strictly defensive; the guy's CAD actually was unable to damage anybody. The problem is that his defensive/supportive powers made combat too easy and, as much as I loved the character, it wasn't fun for me and I'm sure it wasn't for the DM or the other players.

[malice]

I think you're measuring the community because a beef you had with one member. Some people on here will have worse chemistry with you than others.

Here's a litmus test to find out whether there's a problem with the character or a problem with the people: If you get called ANYTHING, powergamer, min-maxer, over-optimizer, then the person is aiming their criticisms the wrong way.

If I don't like your character, I'm going to tell you why I don't like your character. I'm not going to attack YOU at all. If someone does, chances are they make a habit of it and you don't want to play with them anyway. There's a small chance they're just having a lousy day and spoke poorly, but you as a new member will have no way of knowing for sure.

"Your character is overpowered in the following ways: [proceeds to list the ways]" is OK, "You're just powergaming because you're a powergamer you powergamer" is a worthless GM.

Many of the characters I see on here may as well be crippled blind deaf and in a vegetative state for all the good they'll do me in a game. Funny story: First guy to accuse me of powergaming when I first joined here enjoyed not only making those types of characters, but he was wrong in his accusation of powergaming. I'd done something simple like spend a spare red stone on sonar senses or something and he called that powergaming. Idiots are idiots, no matter how they like to play. There are plenty of stupid people on both sides, don't mistake it for a problem with the team.

[shenron]

Aug 23, 2011 15:34:30 GMT -5 malice said:

I think you're measuring the community because a beef you had with one member. Some people on here will have worse chemistry with you than others.

Here's a litmus test to find out whether there's a problem with the character or a problem with the people: If you get called ANYTHING, powergamer, min-maxer, over-optimizer, then the person is aiming their criticisms the wrong way.

If I don't like your character, I'm going to tell you why I don't like your character. I'm not going to attack YOU at all. If someone does, chances are they make a habit of it and you don't want to play with them anyway. There's a small chance they're just having a lousy day and spoke poorly, but you as a new member will have no way of knowing for sure.

"Your character is overpowered in the following ways: [proceeds to list the ways]" is OK, "You're just powergaming because you're a powergamer you powergamer" is a worthless GM.

As Malice said, this is Solid advice here. Please do not measure the community by one interaction. There are a lot of good people here. I would also like to see your sheet.

[Dhark]

I recently received that label myself, and to be honest... it's more than a little frustrating.

Like you, I usually dream up a theme. Then I work to make that theme reality, with the RAW and/or House Rules as necessary. MURPG is incredibly flexible, and perfect for this sort of creativity. It's what I value most about the system.

On the flip side, I'd like to think I'm pretty well known to RP the sh*t out of ANY concept I bring to the table. I also like to think I keep more of them on the level, and justified. On the chance it does look like I've got more punch for stones than my fellow players, I reign it in some RP-wise to make sure we're ALL still having fun. Do I occasionally work up a CAD I feel 'guilty' about, and don't submit? Absolutely... but those ones never see the light of day.

I had a point. I seem to have lost it somewhere.

I wouldn't say the community has gotten elitest.

I do think that a great many GM's try to create a sense of BALANCE across the characters (and, to be fair~ not everyone with a GOOD vision and SOLID role-playing skill is stone-crunch savy enough to contend with everyone else and would subsequently become disenchanted if they're constantly over-shadowed). As such, just having an equal stone count isn't always sufficient.

Some GM's present this 'vibe' well, others come off as stubbornly offensive prats. You learn quick that some GM's can go both ways. Some will see that your THEME is what's important, and creatively suggest more balanced ways (if only in their eyes even) of achieving that theme.

<shrug>

Not sure where I stand on that most days.

I recall your crazy Shadow Tendrils, always thought they were a work of art... both mechanically, AND in my imagination.

[Gryphynx]

Malice, your words are right on. You're right of course. Not only did I stupidly allow the actions of one person to affect my opinion about the community, but I'm also well over it.

Dhark... I ran a game called Marvel: 1602 on here before I left... were you in that game? I seem to remember the name Indigo there... 1602 was about the coolest comic series ever. Just thought it was earlier than 2006/2007. Then again, 4 years feels about right...

[Dhark]

I was indeed.

[brigade]

Min/maxing is different but both are often abused. Because it's all about making one's guy the toughest at what he does. Over the last thirty years I've been playing, I've seen the same attitude from poor players who absolutely must be the toughest character in the group and game and will take every advantage possible. The only real difference I've personally seen is that min/maxers obey the rules while power gamers don't. The other thing I've seen min/maxers do is once they've found that magic formula, they never change anything and always play the same character and always expect other people to build their characters the same way. The power gamers I've seen will actually prevent players from matching their builds through ridicule and insult. These people I simply will not game with anymore.

Me I build my characters around a concept that intrigues me and to make them effective characters in order to have the most fun and use my imagination. I love a good fight, but eventually when the only thing one can do is throw around their fists or claw claw bite (think Werewolf) it does get old after awhile.

[WildKnight]

Not this stupid argument again.

[brigade]

Don't call people stpid for having a different opinion than you. Ignore them. You're being very rude.

[Brainstem]

Don't assuming he's attacking you when he's attacking the argument itself. The min/max debate comes up on any game forum and is always stupid and pointless because it's just people yelling at each other.