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Post by Jet on Dec 25, 2009 8:49:29 GMT -5
Dont worry, you're far from whining so far and you make good points, so let me try to help you a bit.
1. Accumulate Energy is a weird thing among this forum. Everyone knows it exists, but nobody uses it, so we probably forgot all about it. But there is also one other theory I have. You see, Accumulate Energy option for Mastery of Magic is so shamefully broken that whoever wrote the new rules (yeah, I forgot which one of you was it, sorry) must've desperately get rid of it without thinking about the ACTUAL meaning of it. Cant blame him, though. (for the record- Accumulate Energy on MoM regenerated energy equal to MoM AN, which for +1 option was insane! I still think its a typo and not an actual rule)
2. I like Overstrain, but the way its described just begs for a hammer and nails to fix it, especially since there isnt a difference between in cost between having power lost for weeks, days or hours, other then "consult you GM", which believe me, is a can of worms by itself. Now I gotta complain about your arguments here
Yeah, becouse nothing says "good GM" like making the most dickish move this side of "Rock Falls, everyone dies." Especially if that immunity comes completely out of nowhere and is there just to make battle longer.
"Oh, so you have that awesome power that you can use only once and wish to use it against boss? BZZZT! WRONG! He's Immune, enjoy your week without superpowers, sucker!"
Hope you get my point here (in case you dont- I'd punch that GM in the face). And if you think that the solution is to have a doppelganger or different big bad, then well, that will also piss players off. And it limits GM as well- to move the plot forward, they HAVE TO use some weird plot devices becouse there is no other choice. All in all, Overstrain as written is a pain for GM's, forcing them to make dick moves just so players wont break the story to fast. I always liked version of Overstrain that has you sacrifice stones of health for additional firepower, though it needs some work (can you guess how much Abuse = Overstrain + Healing Factor?)
3. You got a point- most of us play MURPG here and those who play it offline rarely use 2.0, becouse its not in a book form, therefore- harder to access on a meeting. I see your point and the only honest answer I can give you, is that Prescience itself is, well, can of worms. Plus, how many characters actually have this kind of ability as written in book? Be honest- Spiderman uses his spider senses mostly when something suddden happens, like an ambush or accident, not in the middle of the fist fight. At least, I dont remember reading any issue of Spiderman where narration bubbles said anything like "thankfully, his spider senses warned him of enemies every move, so he could adjust to them". Maybe I just read the wrong issues? All I read was Essential Spiderman vol 2, Ultimate and several in between trades, so I might've missed some.
4. The whole point of Energy Battery adn Deep Reserves was originally to fix the awfully broken Energy Mechanichs, which made anyone without super Durability, Super Inteligengce or Healing Factor inferior. In 2.0 there is no energy battery (which only adds 3 energy per MN) or Deep Reserves (which adds +1 to regen) becouse Energy Pool and Energy Recovery are abilities by itself and if you need them to be better, just make them better directly. Its like making a modifier that makes your strenght always higher, but it costs less then actually improving your strenght by straight way (if you noted some hostility towards homosexuals here, then you seriously need to get a mental checkup).
5. Photographic Reflexes is a not a can of worms, its a bucket! In short, this power is used to rarely and is so hard to do that its best not to bother at all and just look for alternatives. Otherwise, your head will explode.
And Merry Christmass to you too.
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Post by Reemo on Dec 25, 2009 17:03:51 GMT -5
There is no need for Energy Battery in 2.0, because they let you buy it as its own ability. So you want it at 9? Go ahead, that'll be 12 white stones. And thats going to hurt the rest of your character more than likely.
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Post by Cernunnos on Dec 25, 2009 18:52:27 GMT -5
The Telepathy Action is sufficiently lacking! More specifically the Mental Bolt Option or the lack thereof!
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Post by arch2ngel on Dec 25, 2009 19:34:12 GMT -5
1. Huh. The way we'd always used Accumulate Energy was to allow people to spend points into the Mastery for several panels without actually using them IN those panels, to allow a GYNORMOUS effect when the points ARE spent. Generally, to balance this (and it fit with the Human Torch's Nova effect, which is where it's originally mentioned), the character could take no other action with the exception of spending a few points into Concentration to be able to keep it up (the more rounds you kept accumulating, the more points in concentration were needed.) BIG things could be done with it, but at the expense of everything else - and needing to concentrate more and more on it (thus, limiting how much you COULD accumulate - eventually, the Concentration requirement would be higher than your Energy Recovery!) 2. Yeah, I just threw out a couple quick "here, now that we're at the end of things, is a few extra problems when trying to use Overstrain" - I FIRMLY believe that you should foreshadow a LOT of the twists you plan to throw in. In my opinion, the BEST twists are the ones where the players go "dang! I didn't see that one coming - but I should've!" So have them encounter the Immunity lackey earlier. Now they know he's immune - maybe they just didn't realize he could make his boss immune, too. As for the big bad not being the big bad, I had a whole game where the big bad sent his chief lieutenant after the players. They KNEW there was someone above him, but HE was the one they grew to loath (to the point where the Ranger - this was a 2E AD&D game - requested that his "favored enemy" be that one guy!) I can see your point about how it makes the GM jump through hoops, but from what I've seen, players usually do anyway - and this is one of the few times when you'll be able to see it coming! 3. Yeah, I can see that - although I've always wanted a character with "Limited Prescience" who had a copy of Destiny's diaries (he could use Prescience on anything written in the book - so not many minor fights, but most of the big fights should include key moments, at least.) And as I said, it's probably the BEST Modifier to give a new player to the system - let's 'em figure out how to spend stones as they play the game. (I had a player join a game in progress who was getting frustrated with the game, cause he wasn't familiar with non-dice based systems. So we reworked his character to include Prescience, and once he was able to SEE how the stones were spent, he was able to pick it up pretty quick, and his next character didn't need Prescience for him to not get so frustrated.) 4 (and Reemo). Yeah, my question was a matter of protocol - it was mentioned earlier in this thread that GMs should be careful about allowing a character to have too high an Energy Recovery - that it was no better than letting a character in the old system have Dur. 6 and Healing Factor in the same game as a character with Dur. 3 (and no Healing Factor.) I was just commenting that I like to have my Energy Recovery at about 2/3 of my Energy Pool, and is that what they were referring to as an inappropriate character, or was that acceptable to the community here... 5. I've had multiple players play characters with Photographic Reflexes (one who wanted it with Psi-Weapon, so he could make whatever weapon went with the combat style). It's challenging, but they love it, and it's added to the whole game, in my opinion. Most games, I have SOMEONE who wants to play a character with one of the REALLY expensive powers (I have one in my current game that's playing with Transform Self/Possession. He has Black Ops, because I don't let him have the memories of the person he possesses with that power, so he has to research his target, or try to impersonate on the fly, and Inter-Dimensional Travel, because I required him to have his own means of getting back to the main universe when he accidentally tries to impersonate a magic wielding character. It's a challenge to make things difficult for someone like that, but no more so than the Telepath who took a LOT of the options...) Anyway, I can definitely understand wanting to get the main powers down before bringing in the complex ones, but I don't think it's advisable to simply scrap the bigger ones outright... And a lot of them give MURPG a different FEEL than other super hero RPGs. (I've had MULTIPLE friends try to make Photographic Reflexes in other games, and found it to be VERY frustrating. But then they saw MURPG, and were delighted that it actually WORKS here!) Anyway, thanks greatly for the feedback! I'm glad to hear I didn't come off as whiney (it's sometimes hard to get a feel for the "tone" of a comment, since it's not verbally communicated.)
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Post by Reemo on Dec 25, 2009 21:17:11 GMT -5
#4. 2.0 was written so that there is less that is unacceptable. So that while it is breakable, it is a lot less breakable than 1.0. Which is why if you want to pay for it not many people are going to say no. Because after a certain point it is prohibitavely expensive to do so.
The other part about having the energy and regeneration separate to my understanding is that it better represents the comics where nearly all characters have a much higher pool of energy but an actual lower regeneration rate. And 2.0 is set up to show this.
I'd like to state right here that trying to break something for the sake of breaking it (not under a testing phase) seems out right moronic. It becomes the debate about power gaming vs. any other type. **edit, Set up a character where 12 stones in one attribute leaves much for any type of well rounded character.
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Post by takewithfood on Dec 26, 2009 0:54:42 GMT -5
Just got home from some Christmas travel, and though I'm off to bed in a sec, I thought I'd whip off a quick quick reply. I've only been able to skim the latest posts, so I'll try to write something more thoughtful when I get the chance, but in the meantime this will have to do.
In general, the rules I've put up in here are not intended to be complete. They're really just a handful of stuff that I wanted to test at the time that I started the One in a Million game (which is now rather defunct, due to lack of time on my part). Some of the more complicated rules are missing, as are some that I just didn't get around to writing. There are probably even some that I just forgot to include. ^__^
A few words on the specifics:
Accumulate Energy is a tricky one because there are a lot of different interpretations on how it works. Some interpretations allow you to recover extra energy in a panel, and in others you can spend stones over multiple panels (sometimes just two) for a greater effect; sometimes you're stunned afterwards when you do so.
Likewise with Overstrain, people run it in different ways. I'd like to try to preserve some sense of the power, but I'm actually aiming to incorporate it into my "drama stone" system (very similar to what dorkknight has going in his retread). I'll try to get to that later, when I have more time.
Similarly, with Telepathy, a lot of the options are absent because I didn't have time to get to them - or they just haven't changed from the original versions. Mental bolts is tricky because it often implies using the whole "stones vs. mental defense" system, but that can be heinously broken in the right circumstances (telepathy with a high AN + int bonus and mental bolts as an option isn't very expensive, and most opponents are only going to have a tiny defense against it). I really think a new system for mental bolts should be available; just haven't gotten around to working it out yet.
Prescience is excluded for this game largely because it's awkward in online play, but also because it tends to be hideously broken. It's one of those powers where it feels silly not to buy it. Of course, your mileage may vary, and it depends on the rest of the character's build.
I'll have to get into energy in more detail later, but the general idea in 2.0 is to have LOW recoveries and HIGH reserves. That way, there is an actual risk to running out of energy. Too often with the regular rules, characters would be built so that they could constantly, indefinitely power their best/most common Actions at FULL BLAST without ever needing to dip into their reserves. Usually this was accomplished by a combo of a healing factor and a large modifier, often with the efficient advantage, etc. This makes the game boring as hell: every panel winds up looking about the same as the last. "9 stones into force blast!" over and over and over. I would pretty much never, ever allow a character with pool 2 or 3 and recovery 9 or 10. That would be nutty.
But that's just me - ever GM has their own style. The ultimate point of re-doing the energy system was to make it much easier to get exactly the right recovery/pool ratio for your character without involving weird 1.5x multipliers or modifiers with strange derivative costs. Just buy a pool, buy a reserve, and you're done.
Photographic reflexes needs a lot of work. Honestly, every rule I come up with basically ends up as little more than a high AN with flavour. *shrug*
As I said, I'll try to write more later. Happy Holidays, everyone!
~TWF
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Post by arch2ngel on Dec 26, 2009 1:51:59 GMT -5
I know that this form of the Rulebook is only intended as a playtest for ONE game, but it's also the most complete 2.0 set of rules out there - it has BECOME the standard that everyone looks at to determine what's in 2.0 - and since the game is pretty much defunct now...why not let it become that? (I honestly hadn't realized it was the "official" version until you mentioned it, as it was linked to from another game AS the official version to be used in that game as well! lol)
Um...which leads to the question: should I be posting ideas and questions about MURPG 2.0 here? or in the MURPG 2.0 Project folder? (I honestly prefer here, as it feels a LOT more organized here - but that could just be an outsider's perspective, and if I got adjusted to the folder, it'd feel just as organized... /shrugs/)
In any case - as promised, my suggestion for Transform Self: (Note: I'm concerned this might be too complicated - please let me know if it is!) Create the more powerful aspects of the character (in any form), and any abilities/actions/modifiers that BOTH forms will have. any ability/action/modifier that the other form is unable to use, determine the score the lower form of that ability will have, and determine the cost difference between the two. Halve it. This is how many points extra you gain. These "extra points" can ONLY be spent on one form or another (meaning that you cannot put the points into both forms, though if you have 3 points, you CAN put 2 points into one form, and the last point into the other form.) This effectively gives you back 1/4 of the difference of points. (I would make half 1w = 2r, and half 1r = 1/2r. If you got 2 of the 1/2r, it would equal 1r, if not, it's lost, as nothing costs 1/2r.)
For example: A player purchases Intelligence 3 and Strength 9 for his character (13 points). His first form will retain the Intelligence, but not the strength, and his second form will do the opposite. For the second form, reduce the Intelligence to 1, giving him 1r back (1w - 1r = 2r x 1/2 = 1r). Next, the player reduces the first form's Strength to 3, giving him 5w 2r more points(12w - 1w = 11w x 1/2 = 5w 2r). This brings his total to 6w that he can split up however he wants between the two forms to tweak the character to JUST how he wants him. Maybe he'd prefer to have his strong form have a 10 strength instead, and spends 3 points of his 6, leaving him with 3 points that he can spend on either form.
Note: Challenges that affect both forms should be purchased BEFORE determining points for splitting the forms, while Challenges that affect one form only should be determined AFTER splitting the forms. EACH form is allowed a maximum of 10 pts (or however many the GM approves) of Challenges.
I think this would compensate characters with two powerful forms (as they'd have a few extra points for not having access to all of the powers all the time), and characters like Colossus who only have a weaker form (as they'd just spend the extra points into the more powerful form - at the expense of having a weaker form to be surprise attacked, power negated back into, etc.) It's a bunch of extra math, but no more complicated than most of character creation to begin with - just extra step(s).
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Post by arch2ngel on Dec 26, 2009 2:19:19 GMT -5
Oops! Missed a few things I wanted to reply to! /sheepish/ Accumulate Energy is a tricky one because there are a lot of different interpretations on how it works. Some interpretations allow you to recover extra energy in a panel, and in others you can spend stones over multiple panels (sometimes just two) for a greater effect; sometimes you're stunned afterwards when you do so. Interesting. I don't see how it would allow you to recover extra energy in a panel (since it's listed under the Human Torch's Mastery of Fire as specifically for the use of a Nova Blast. I honestly think it was intended as an early Overstrain...) I do have to agree, though, that it'd be good to come up with a definitive, uh definition of what the advantage does... (I DID forget to mention that we also had the character stunned after using the advantage - in equal measure to the amount of rounds he accumulated energy for his big expenditure.) Likewise with Overstrain, people run it in different ways. I'd like to try to preserve some sense of the power, but I'm actually aiming to incorporate it into my "drama stone" system (very similar to what dorkknight has going in his retread). I'll try to get to that later, when I have more time. Interesting. I saw the drama system briefly mentioned here, but I'm not sure how it would work. I LIKE the idea that EVERYONE can Overstrain with any ability (how many times has Spider-man pushed himself beyond his abilities because he was properly motivated?? But he doesn't have Overstrain on ANY of his...) Maybe with this, Accumulated Energy is unnecessary, though I still like it for the purposes of long-term projects (like Magneto creating Asteroid M as a base of operations, or Professor X having to go in and work on memories implanted by another powerful Telepath...) Similarly, with Telepathy, a lot of the options are absent because I didn't have time to get to them - or they just haven't changed from the original versions. Mental bolts is tricky because it often implies using the whole "stones vs. mental defense"; system, but that can be heinously broken in the right circumstances (telepathy with a high AN + int bonus and mental bolts as an option isn't very expensive, and most opponents are only going to have a tiny defense against it). I really think a new system for mental bolts should be available; just haven't gotten around to working it out yet. It's got the reverse problem, too - sure, when you go up against a normal brick, you OWN that character's mind, frying it out like a computer circuit in the rain - but against another Telepath? Good luck affecting them at all! I'll have to get into energy in more detail later, but the general idea in 2.0 is to have LOW recoveries and HIGH reserves. That way, there is an actual risk to running out of energy. Too often with the regular rules, characters would be built so that they could constantly, indefinitely power their best/most common Actions at FULL BLAST without ever needing to dip into their reserves. Usually this was accomplished by a combo of a healing factor and a large modifier, often with the efficient advantage, etc. This makes the game boring as hell: every panel winds up looking about the same as the last. "9 stones into force blast!" over and over and over. I would pretty much never, ever allow a character with pool 2 or 3 and recovery 9 or 10. That would be nutty. I think that's more of a problem with players making characters that are one trick ponies. "I have ONE ability that I can fight with, so I'm going to use it every time for as hard as I can" - thus making every round the same as the one before. Same for villains. What if my villain stabs you in the first round with a sword. The next round, he detonates an area affect energy blast. Or he defended all out last round, but this round attacks all out (especially if he has a healing factor that kicks in every other round.) The player has to spend stones differently, and decide what to do next round, because he CAN'T just attack all out and expect the same results each round... Besides, I'd generally make characters that COULD deplete their Energy Pool in a turn if needed (especially at rank 2 or 3), so it IS a very real possibility for him to run out of energy and have to make attacks at 2/3 strength or lower (depending on how much is needed for defense, etc.) What I hate is getting down to zero energy, and having to wait 10 rounds to build back up my energy. I don't care when in the fight that happens - when it does, it makes the rest of the fight REALLY drag... Besides, at that point I'm spending all I have to keep the enemy from trouncing me, so I probably won't be able to get an attack in until after I'VE run away! Some hero I turned out to be! But that's just my view on it, and could be colored by the play style (and GM styles) I've grown accustomed to...
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Post by dorkknight23 on Dec 26, 2009 3:23:34 GMT -5
Prescience is excluded for this game largely because it's awkward in online play, but also because it tends to be hideously broken. It's one of those powers where it feels silly not to buy it. Of course, your mileage may vary, and it depends on the rest of the character's build. I came up with a variant on Prescience (one that works with a nice quantifiable MN, too) for my retread: This is useful because: 1) it's quantifiable, 2) it works more like how Prescient-type characters work in the comics, 3) it limits it's use in online play (since all it could be is "I will shift up to MN stones to defense if I'm attacked by something." If you like it, feel free to take it. My retread, WK's retread, and the 2.0 project seem to all be actively cribbing notes from each other.
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Post by arch2ngel on Dec 26, 2009 3:27:33 GMT -5
Allows the user to spontaneously and subconsciously detect possible danger, enabling them to shift stones equal to the modifier number to defense (or, at the player’s option, to an appropriate movement action [like Flight, Force Field, Teleportation, or Phase Shift.] If they take this option, they can’t shift stones to defense, only to that one action in question,) or negate situational modifiers based on attacking an opponent shielded by illusion/deception/invisibility or any other similar situations (stepping on creaky floorboards and navigating a darkened room, for example.) However, actions like Illusion or Invisibility of a higher AN ignore this totally (so the Invisible Woman can still sneak up on Spider-Man.) Spider-Man, for the record, has this at MN 7. I really do like that! What MN+?CL did you set it at?
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Post by arch2ngel on Dec 27, 2009 21:15:44 GMT -5
I know that this form of the Rulebook is only intended as a playtest for ONE game, but it's also the most complete 2.0 set of rules out there - it has BECOME the standard that everyone looks at to determine what's in 2.0 - and since the game is pretty much defunct now...why not let it become that? (I honestly hadn't realized it was the "official" version until you mentioned it, as it was linked to from another game AS the official version to be used in that game as well! lol) Um...which leads to the question: should I be posting ideas and questions about MURPG 2.0 here? or in the MURPG 2.0 Project folder? (I honestly prefer here, as it feels a LOT more organized here - but that could just be an outsider's perspective, and if I got adjusted to the folder, it'd feel just as organized... /shrugs/) In any case - as promised, my suggestion for Transform Self: (Note: I'm concerned this might be too complicated - please let me know if it is!) Create the more powerful aspects of the character (in any form), and any abilities/actions/modifiers that BOTH forms will have. any ability/action/modifier that the other form is unable to use, determine the score the lower form of that ability will have, and determine the cost difference between the two. Halve it. This is how many points extra you gain. These "extra points" can ONLY be spent on one form or another (meaning that you cannot put the points into both forms, though if you have 3 points, you CAN put 2 points into one form, and the last point into the other form.) This effectively gives you back 1/4 of the difference of points. (I would make half 1w = 2r, and half 1r = 1/2r. If you got 2 of the 1/2r, it would equal 1r, if not, it's lost, as nothing costs 1/2r.) For example: A player purchases Intelligence 3 and Strength 9 for his character (13 points). His first form will retain the Intelligence, but not the strength, and his second form will do the opposite. For the second form, reduce the Intelligence to 1, giving him 1r back (1w - 1r = 2r x 1/2 = 1r). Next, the player reduces the first form's Strength to 3, giving him 5w 2r more points(12w - 1w = 11w x 1/2 = 5w 2r). This brings his total to 6w that he can split up however he wants between the two forms to tweak the character to JUST how he wants him. Maybe he'd prefer to have his strong form have a 10 strength instead, and spends 3 points of his 6, leaving him with 3 points that he can spend on either form. Note: Challenges that affect both forms should be purchased BEFORE determining points for splitting the forms, while Challenges that affect one form only should be determined AFTER splitting the forms. EACH form is allowed a maximum of 10 pts (or however many the GM approves) of Challenges. I think this would compensate characters with two powerful forms (as they'd have a few extra points for not having access to all of the powers all the time), and characters like Colossus who only have a weaker form (as they'd just spend the extra points into the more powerful form - at the expense of having a weaker form to be surprise attacked, power negated back into, etc.) It's a bunch of extra math, but no more complicated than most of character creation to begin with - just extra step(s). After thinking about it, I decided that I'd set the above as a straight involuntary change. Half the points would be awarded to characters with a voluntary change (so the half points would be further halved.) A character with a voluntary shift that can sometimes be forced to change (a werewolf that can change when he wants, but is forced to by the full moon, for example) would be created as a voluntary change with a 1-5w Challenge for having a condition that forces the character to change... (I was also assuming that changes would take a full panel to complete - no other action could be taken. I'd make it pretty costly to reduce the cost to 1 action, and VERY costly to reduce it to a free action...)
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Post by takewithfood on Dec 28, 2009 1:17:05 GMT -5
I know that this form of the Rulebook is only intended as a playtest for ONE game, but it's also the most complete 2.0 set of rules out there - it has BECOME the standard that everyone looks at to determine what's in 2.0 - and since the game is pretty much defunct now...why not let it become that? Well, for starters, I don't really have the power to decide what the official 2.0 rules are and what they aren't. I'm just one guy, and really the whole 2.0 thing was a collaborative work from the start - and it still is. I mean, you're contributing right now, and so am I. ^__^ Besides, every GM uses house rules. I think the best we can hope for is to set up some bare bones stuff and let people pick and choose what they want to use. The 2.0 folder is probably the best place for general 2.0 rules talk. This thread is a good place for anything I have specifically assembled. So, for example, if you have a new rule idea, the 2.0 folder is the best place. Sorry, I find this a little confusing (it isn't your fault - transform self rules are impossible to explain!) so I'll have to ask some questions and try to work out some examples. So, if I'm reading your example correctly, we end up with a CAD that has Int 1/3 and Strength 9/3. In other words, the character is either Int 1 Str 9, or he's Int 3 Str 3. This cost him 13 white, but he got a 6 white refund. I think I'm with you so far. You lost me at the part about spending the 6 white refunded stones. How does that work exactly? If he spends them increasing his Strength, what does that cost? One of the major problems I've encountered with this kind of system before is that it is way too inexpensive for Colossus-type characters. Yes, they're screwed if the GM can find a way to prevent them from transforming (it's hard to explain why Colossus doesn't walk around armored up all the time), but once they're transformed, they're usually much more powerful than their teammates. For example, if you have a super powered form with lots of goodies (Strength and Toughness, for argument's sake), and a regular human form without much at all, then the character is almost getting their super powers for 1/2 cost. That's a little too much, don't you think? I have never been able to come up with a Transform Self rule that I couldn't break, and break badly. It vexes me something fierce. U_U ~TWF
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Post by arch2ngel on Dec 28, 2009 2:39:13 GMT -5
Well, for starters, I don't really have the power to decide what the official 2.0 rules are and what they aren't. I'm just one guy, and really the whole 2.0 thing was a collaborative work from the start - and it still is. I mean, you're contributing right now, and so am I. ^__^ Besides, every GM uses house rules. I think the best we can hope for is to set up some bare bones stuff and let people pick and choose what they want to use. Yeah, I guess that's what's so frustrating about the project. I'm cool with having a rules set that I disagree with portions of, and just implement the house rules I want to bring it in line with my own desires for how I'd like to run the game. But setting up the WHOLE GAME as a House Rule is kinda over the top (though come to think of it, that's basically what 2.0 is!) I've just seen a few people (and I haven't been here that long) that link to your Rulebook as the 2.0 rules - and I can understand why! They're well organized, and seem to include all of the items that everyone can agree on. Trying to play a game with 2.0 without your Rulebook would involve looking up different threads for each action and modifier, and that's more hassle than it's worth. The 2.0 folder is probably the best place for general 2.0 rules talk. This thread is a good place for anything I have specifically assembled. So, for example, if you have a new rule idea, the 2.0 folder is the best place. Cool. I'll move my idea for Transform Self over there, once I get your opinion here. Sorry, I find this a little confusing (it isn't your fault - transform self rules are impossible to explain!) so I'll have to ask some questions and try to work out some examples. So, if I'm reading your example correctly, we end up with a CAD that has Int 1/3 and Strength 9/3. In other words, the character is either Int 1 Str 9, or he's Int 3 Str 3. This cost him 13 white, but he got a 6 white refund. I think I'm with you so far. You lost me at the part about spending the 6 white refunded stones. How does that work exactly? If he spends them increasing his Strength, what does that cost? Since his character's strength is now 9/3, to use those refunded stones, he could spend 3 to raise his strength to 10/3 (but would require more than the points he has to get to an 11/3, as that would cost 8 points). It's a moot point to buy up his strength for the lower form, as it'd cost less to just not reduce it quite so low (since he's only getting half his points back.) Does that make more sense? One of the major problems I've encountered with this kind of system before is that it is way too inexpensive for Colossus-type characters. Yes, they're screwed if the GM can find a way to prevent them from transforming (it's hard to explain why Colossus doesn't walk around armored up all the time), but once they're transformed, they're usually much more powerful than their teammates. For example, if you have a super powered form with lots of goodies (Strength and Toughness, for argument's sake), and a regular human form without much at all, then the character is almost getting their super powers for 1/2 cost. That's a little too much, don't you think? It'd be more like 3/4 cost, but I see your point. I think that can be solved by saying the transformation is involuntary. I'd give them even less points back if it was a voluntary change. And if changing takes time, or an item, then the disadvantage is that they could get waylaid in the lesser form, and have to spend precious time changing. (I know a lot of normal characters - especially those who maintain a Secret Identity - have this kind of a problem as well, but they at least keep the advantage of having their abilities, even if they're trying to hide the fact that they do.) I think my idea works pretty well for just about any two form character - it kinda breaks down when you have three - or more - forms for a character, though...
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Post by arch2ngel on Dec 28, 2009 2:47:00 GMT -5
I just thought of something - if the concern is keeping the character balanced with other characters, why not limit how many stones they can get refunded by Transform Self. Since we're already limiting the amount of stones of Challenges a character can have, just say that every two stones of refunded points count as one stone of Challenges. That means the vast majority of their Challenges will be wrapped up in their Transform Self, and limits just how much they'll be adjusting the character from a "game breaking" perspective (I'd allow the character to have greater restrictions than what their challenges allow them to, they just wouldn't get the points for it.)
So in a game that allows 10 stones of Challenges, a Transform Self character could get 20 refunded stones (which seems fair to me, since the refunded stones only affect one form or the other - effectively giving the character 10 Challenge stones per form.)
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Post by arch2ngel on Dec 28, 2009 5:45:25 GMT -5
I think I came up with a simpler way of doing it - which I posted to the Marvel 2.0 Folder.
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