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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 17:34:10 GMT -5
Playah has a point about the nul stat.
Also, Will as a +2 option for Leadership is a step in the right direction, anyhow.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 10, 2009 17:34:16 GMT -5
Nothing... and in fact... it's probably going to be added in as well (maybe at a higher cost..) But this allows everyone a modicum of defense... Also... if I remember correctly, certain attacks are going to target certain attributes instead of Defense as a whole, so where once having a Reflexive Dodge of 2 and a Toughness of 2 meant a Defense of 4... I think it only equals a Defense of 2 now...
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Post by Jet on Feb 10, 2009 17:36:50 GMT -5
Nothing... and in fact... it's probably going to be added in as well (maybe at a higher cost..) But this allows everyone a modicum of defense... Also... if I remember correctly, certain attacks are going to target certain attributes instead of Defense as a whole, so where once having a Reflexive Dodge of 2 and a Toughness of 2 meant a Defense of 4... I think it only equals a Defense of 2 now... A thug (CC: 1) with Knife (WM +1) will NEVER harm ANY human unless he's suffering from sit mods, becouse ANY human will end up with defense at least 2. Unless I missed something? (and lets pretend that the thug has no "Knife" specialty)
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Post by Dionon on Feb 10, 2009 17:39:50 GMT -5
Thank god we're rewriting the rules....
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 17:41:12 GMT -5
Hee hee. I still don't see a problem with the way we used to do it.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 10, 2009 17:57:48 GMT -5
*shrugs* I was just being an asshole to playah. I thought it was funny....
But, I honestly like this way of Static Defense from Stats, it's interesting, and it makes sense.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 18:03:33 GMT -5
I think its interesting, and it makes sense some or possibly even most of the time. But it's inelegant and breaks down at some levels. As we try to patch the holes, it's going to get more and more complicated, and less and less elegant. What do modifications to your derrived stats cost? How do you determine your Toughness class (for resisting Armor Penetration)? And so on.
I think it has some merit, but it's still inferior to the old system of just buying Toughness and Ref. Dodge. I can't justify new rules that fix something that was never broken. Just my opinion; I may end up alone on that one.
~TWF
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Post by Dionon on Feb 10, 2009 18:12:06 GMT -5
Hmmm...
Determining Toughness Class: Purchase it once you have your Toughness? (IE If you don't, it's the NUL option... Just pay stones for it..)
Modifications to Derived Stats (I'd say the cost of old Toughness/Reflexive Dodge - Modifier Number +3CL)
It's all very elegant, and simple.....
But, since I'm not the writer, I'm still waiting for VJC to come in and help me out here.... Maybe I'm wrong and he has some other ideas...
And yes, as they stand, getting Toughness and Reflexive Dodge are Broken beyond compare.
If I want a character that can lift a Tank, and is as tough as steel, that's 24 of my stones... Now to power that... I'm going to need a Durability of at least 6... that's another 12 of my stones, or 36... I now have 4... count the 4... before flaws... stones to get my Actions... And that's NOT counting No 2x and the old No AP... that ups my Str/Tough cost from 24 stones to 32... MUCH too expensive.... Much Much too expensive.
Now... if I had a Strength of 9 and a Durability of 6... I'd have a Toughness of 7... Nice, simple, easy to grasp, and it makes sense with someone that can lift a freakin tank over his head and throwit.
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Post by takewithfood on Feb 10, 2009 18:37:33 GMT -5
It make sense with someone who can lift a tank and throw it, but Playah already demonstrated how it makes much, much less sense at low levels. By this system *I* probably have a Toughness of 2. That's a hefty loophole for what amounts to a cost fix.
Anyway, I'll let vjc get in here at some point and explain all this.
~TWF
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Post by de5pa1r on Feb 10, 2009 23:37:16 GMT -5
Several possible solutions that popped into my head:
Instead of the average of the two stats listed, we could do average/2 rounded down so that mooks with stats of 1 don't have defense.
Make the character choose 1 of the 2 physical defense stats listed (either Reflexive Dodge or Toughness).
Instead of giving the characters these defensive modifiers, knock a couple of CLs off of the respective Modifiers up until that average. But this doesn't adhere to the KISS rule, so I'm not even sure why I'm proposing it...
Anyway, look it over and let me know what you think.
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Post by Neros on Feb 11, 2009 4:33:27 GMT -5
Dio: The system you are proposing sounds simple enough, but as said, at some points it wont be handled that well.. I also think the old Toughness and Reflexive Dodge rules seemed fine enough..
And you are Right Despair.. It would solve the normal-good-for-nuting humans having 2 in defense but it dosent sound to KISS..
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Post by de5pa1r on Feb 11, 2009 9:12:37 GMT -5
That was a list of 3 different possible solutions.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 13:17:53 GMT -5
That's why I'm saying, let VJC come in and explain his intent.... I might be completely missing something lol
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Post by vjcsmoke on Feb 11, 2009 21:16:34 GMT -5
Ok the original defense matrix described above used one individual ability to oppose the described attack. The flavor would explain how the defense worked as per traditional defense modifier that we used to buy separately
However the improvement/simplification of that idea is to add the two relevant stats together to get the total for your flavor defense and round that number up. I like this improvement because it makes calculating defense very simple.
Here's how reflexive dodge flavor works now. If the attack is defeated by your reflexive dodge defense, you avoid it entirely.
However if the attack is stronger than your reflexive dodge, it hits you and now you compare the attack directly against your toughness. Subtract stones as appropriate now.
Now to explain Will. Will was introduced to pair with Int, and it defends vs magical attacks since Intfends vs mental attacks. But now that Will and Int are combined together, just average them to find out your mental fortitude which defends either against mental, magical, emotional, and illusion attacks.
Will is more of an intangible stat that describs guts/spirit/charisma. An example of a very strong willed character is Captain America. His physical stats are only a little stronger than peak human, but his intangibles, leadership ability, charisma, etc. are through the roof.
Any possible attack should be accountable by the defense matrix and dealt with by the appropriate composite defense, Reflexive Dodge, Toughness, or Mental Fortitude.
I'll be happy to discuss any further improvements are explain any further questions about the defense matrix.
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Post by Dionon on Feb 11, 2009 21:36:25 GMT -5
See? There we go.... a perfectly good explanation (I knew I forgot something...)
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